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 Re:



To Ceedub:

Here we are again.

[b]Ceedub said:[/b]
So being tempted is the same as sinning. Hebrews says Christ was tempted in every way just like us, yet without sin. I don't think a temptation is sin unless it is carried out

[b]My response to the above:[/b]
The Bible tells us we do sin, just by our thoughts. Please read the sermon on the Mount, by Jesus Christ
(Matt 5:1-48)
Here is only one of many examples:
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Ceedub, you err, because you do not understand the Scriptures. The Scripture teaches us that within Jesus Christ was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. How can you possibly even compare yourself to God in the flesh, to Jesus Christ? He was sinless, and you and I are full of sin!:

Col 2:9-10
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Hebrews 4:15 says simply and clearly that He was "tempted in every way, just as (in exactly the same way as) we are."

Jesus' person as true God and as true man is a miracle beyond our understanding. If we could completely understand how he could be both fully God and fully man, we could understand better exactly what happened in Jesus when he was tempted.[b] As true man, we can see that he could be tempted exactly the way we are, and as true God we can see how he could pass the test of each temptation and "yet was without sin--HE NEVER SINNED ONCE, BY THOUGHT OR DEED!!! (Hebrews 4:15).[/b]

[b][color=990000]Though we cannot fully understand how all this can be, we rejoice that God's Word tells us that he passed every temptation without sinning and so was the perfect Savior we needed who could pay the full price to take all our sins away. In Matthew 4:1-11 we have a clear example of Jesus being tempted by Satan who also tempts us. But we see how Jesus answered Satan each time with a Bible passage and passed each test without sinning.

Jesus' victory is also our victory because Jesus' perfect life (his active obedience, Galatians 4:4 "born under law to redeem those under law"), along with his suffering and death to pay for our sins (his passive obedience, 1 John 2:2), is credited to us by faith for our salvation.[/color][/b]

When we "put on" Jesus Christ, when we accept Him as Lord and Savior, we are "in" Christ, & supernaturally we are "in" His perfection.

[b]In sanctification we work out the implications of our union with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. We are one with him. He is the vine; we are the branches. We are united.

We died to sin, but we are raised with Christ. For what purpose? To live a new life. Now, there are a lot of people who profess to be born again and profess to be justified and be united with Jesus Christ. That doesn't make them Christians. Your profession doesn't make you a Christian. Look at what Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: Many would call him, "Lord, Lord." (Matthew 7:21-23) Your calling him, "Lord, Lord," does not make you a Christian. There are so many people in the Christian church who are not born again, who are not justified, who are not by faith united to Jesus Christ in his death and burial and resurrection, and they find sanctification to be what? An impossible task. Because of this the church just lowered the standard and said, "It's okay to live like the devil. It's all right. You just receive Jesus as Savior. We know that it is not easy to receive him as Lord." What the church should be saying is, "You must be born again." And where there is new birth and justification, there is also the divine work of sanctification.

So sanctification is really a working out of the implications of our union with Jesus Christ. Christ was raised from the dead, and with Christ we are also raised to live a new life of resurrection power. That's why we can say, "I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengtheneth me." What we need is strength, and it is coming to me. The resurrection life is flowing into me and making me able to do what God wants me to do with all joy and delight.

Now the next point is that sanctification - victorious Christian life - is a life of choosing to obey. I don't think when we get to heaven we will have to choose between holiness and wickedness. I believe that sin will be completely dealt with and eradicated. The conflict will be over. Isn't that true? But now, from the moment you are born again, from the moment you are justified, you are led into an arena of battle and fighting and conflict. In your being there are now two contrary urgings.

Turn to Galatians 5:16: "So I say, live by the Spirit" - that is Holy Spirit here - "and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." You see, the issue here is that the desire of sinful nature is registering in your being, in your consciousness. But not only is the desire of the sinful nature is registering in your consciousness, but the desire of the Holy Spirit is also registering in your consciousness. This, then, is the conflict. Some people say, "Well, this means I am not a Christian." Actually, this means you are a Christian. You didn't have any problem before. You didn't have any conflict before. But now you have a conflict because the divine life has entered into you. The Holy Spirit has come into you. You have been given a new nature, and the old sin did not go away. It is still in our members. So we read, "So I say, live by the Spirit" - in other words, obey the Spirit, follow the Spirit, listen to the Spirit, do what the Holy Spirit is prompting you to do - "and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is contrary to the sinful nature." The desires of the flesh and the desires of the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive.

So the issue here is that IF I/YOU am born of God, then the Holy Spirit is dwelling in me. He is causing me to understand and do his desires, in opposition to the desires of the flesh that also register in my being at the same time. That's why I like the expression, "Endure hardship as a good soldier." Christian life is soldiering. You may want to sleep on. You may want to continue to sleep, but the Holy Spirit says this is the time for you to pray. So you have to make a decision. You have to choose between these two urgings. If you are a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit, you have the capacity to obey the Holy Spirit, thereby proving to the world that you are a child of God, that you are a Christian, that you are light and not darkness.[

Unless you or I accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, unless we are "in" Christ, we are "in" Adam and on our way to hell.[/b]
xxxxx

Also Ceedub, you stated this in your last post:

Walter, thanks for your responses. It's been enough if it is going to come to personal attacks that I'm like a JW that denies original sin.

On the contrary, I was all but forced out of the last church I attended along with a small group of others for not being willing to compromise on original sin, total depravity and the doctrines of grace.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My response:

If you came to our Church, with the beliefs that you have expressed here, we would ask you to join our New Believers Bible study. After studying God's Word, with young and old men alike, and you persisted in your false beliefs, we would be forced to ask you to leave as well.

Think nothing personal about what I said about the Mormons, the JW's, or any of the other cults out there. It was not a slam, it was the truth. Their belief's about sin mirror your own.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Quote:
Humans not only sin by deeds, by actually committing the act, but also by thoughts of wanting to commit the act, eventhough they never follow through.



So being tempted is the same as sinning. Hebrews says Christ was tempted in every way just like us, yet without sin. I don't think a temptation is sin unless it is carried out.


Quote:
If you believe the Bible, then your question is meaningless. If you don’t believe the Bible, then you will continue asking the same question, again and again, exactly like you have on this thread.



Thanks. I'd pass your advice along to Calvin, MacArthur, Henry, Bunyan, Barnes, and Spurgeon if possible to let them know they either don't believe the bible or are/have been wasting their time.

Quote:
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”--The Bible!



Crystal clear? You've gone back and forth over and over. One time it's Adam's guilt that they owned 1 moment after conception that will take them to hell, and the next it's because they sinned themselves.

Quote:
The Gnostics did not believe in the doctrine of original sin. Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in original sin. Mormons do not believe in original sin. All of the cults do not believe in original sin either!



And finally, thanks (sarcasm) for insinuating I'm at cult level for agreeing with Barnes, Bunyan and many others that see God telling us in scripture that we will be judged by our deeds.
Those of us that have sinful deeds, ie all that have broken God's law, ie all except infants or others that never reach accountability, will be held guilty and hell bound but for God's saving grace through Christ alone.

Walter, thanks for your responses. It's been enough if it is going to come to personal attacks that I'm like a JW that denies original sin.

On the contrary, I was all but forced out of the last church I attended along with a small group of others for not being willing to compromise on original sin, total depravity and the doctrines of grace.

Not once have I asserted a sinless state in adults. Not once have I denied original sin and the death and sin nature that came with it.

I've only questioned how those that never reach an age of accountability (ie a day old life in the womb) can be found guilty when God says he finds guilt based on deeds done in the flesh.


The only response that remains is the one that shows clearly that God will hold me guilty for the sins of Adam. That I need never sin in the womb myself, but by Adam I am found guilty in the womb nonetheless. Not sinful, for that only states what is inevitable. Not dead either, for babies die in the womb through abortion with no guilt on their hands. Christ died a physical death as well, and in Him was no sin. (Please don't feel the need to explain substitionary atonement as I understand it).

I don't mean to sound impatient, but I didn't expect such a misrepresentation of my views, nor being compared to cults because I've voiced the same theology as the bible and many commentators before me who've forgotten more than I know.

I guess I do see an age of accountability. I don't see God charging hell-worthy guilt to infants in the womb who've never transgressed the law.

I do see physical death with infants. That broad stroke of judgement that fell on the whole humnan race when Adam sinned.

I see a sinful nature within all that have ever been born since Adam, save Christ himself.

But not guilt through Adam. That comes from personal sin.

 2009/5/4 0:26









 Saints

I would really urge you all, particuraly Bro Ceedub, don't even respond to Waltern's latest posting. Let him be "right", what gain could be gleaned from refuting him, he's always "right".

only religious pride could keep this thread going, there's no fruit on this tree.

neil

 2009/5/4 8:59
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Waltern, I've been watching this thread over the past few days, and to be honest, it's exhausting watching your "replies". I think you need to stop. Have you even read anything ceedub has said? You quote snippets of what he writes, then go off on some long rant that may or may not have anything to do with the topic. You are beating the air. It looks like you are on a mission to preach, and looking for reasons to do so. I can't judge your motives, but it [i]appears[/i] that you either you don't know how to interpret what somewhat writes, or are intentionally misrepresenting ceedub. He has nowhere questioned or denied the sinfulness of man or original sin, and yet you post endlessly on the exclusivity of the gospel. It's not even connected to what he has asked, and then you label him as doctrinally ignorant. He even quotes theologians of the past to better explain his question (not to disprove Original Sin, as you claim he's trying to do), and you contort that. What's also interesting to me is how you continue to misquote Psalm 51:5. Haven't you been on here in the past trying to prove the KJV as an inspired translation, and now you don't even use it? You have not helped this discussion, but frustrated it.

He asked about Original Sin vs. "Original Guilt". [i]He accepts Original Sin as biblical[/i]. His question is, are we found guilty because of Adam? Is it taught explicitly? Is it biblical to imply? Is it unbiblical?


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2009/5/4 9:06Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

I too have been watching this thread and will have to agree with you Denver and Neil...

The original question and the repeat of the question has been clear enough, but the rants in between have been totally useless.

For the record, put me down on the side of those commentators who believe that we will be judged for our deeds rather than our fathers, et al. 2 Chronicles 25:1 and the following verses appear very clear on that point along with what has been quoted from Ezekiel 18:20 and the following verses. It would preposterous to say the least to be commanded repeatedly and warned repeatedly against the breaking of commands, and told repeatedly how we will be judged and for what we will be judged if it all had to do with what someone before us did.

Actually the whole long argument comes down to a moot point for those of us who have lived long enough to make some decisions on our own, because indeed we have all sinned.

I trust totally and completely the character of God who answered the prayer of Abraham for his less than noble nephew Lot. The judge of all the earth will do right.

My two bits :-)

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/5/4 9:30Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

1Thess.1:8 seems to make it clear that destruction will come to those "who don't know God and those who don't obey the gospel of Jesus Christ". It would appear from Romans 1 that God is known from His creation and to the extent one can "know God" in his creation then he is liable. If someone is unable due to age or handicap to "know God", then 1thess1:8 would seem to suggest they don't suffer destruction at judgement.

 2009/5/4 9:55Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

whyme, I believe you mean 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

In my post I should have gone directly to the verse that states my point which is 2 Chronicles 25:4. If the scripture cannot be broken as our Lord said in John 10:35, then it seems pretty clear that whatever argument that one would make regarding original sin, sin nature and a whole host of inferences and eisegesis that we can all make, they are really beside the point to the original question. The Law said (Deuteronomy 24:16) that the children would not be put to death for the father. There is an interesting quote in Numbers 27:3 also regarding someone who died in the wilderness and why.

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2009/5/4 10:57Profile









 Re:



To Clint:

Is Adams [b][color=000000]SIN "imputed"[/color][/b] to man?

Is Christ's[b][color=CC0000] RIGHTEOUSNESS "imputed" [/color][/b]to man?

Noah Websters 1828 Dictionary:
[b]IMPU'TE, v.t. [L. imputo; in and puto, to think, to reckon; properly, to set, to put, to throw to or on.][/b]

1. To charge; to attribute; to set to the account of; generally ill, sometimes good. We impute crimes,sins, trespasses, faults, blame, &c., to the guilty persons. We impute wrong actions to bad motives, or to ignorance, or to folly and rashness. We impute misfortunes and miscarriages to imprudence.

[b][color=CC0000] "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (Romans 4:1-25)[/color][/b]

2. To attribute; to ascribe.
I have read a book imputed to lord Bathurst.

[b][color=000000]3. To reckon to one what does not belong to him.

It has been held that Adam's sin is imputed to all his posterity.[/color][/b]

[b][color=CC0000]Thy merit Imputed shall absolve them who renounce Their own both righteous and unrighteous deeds.[/color][/b]

[b]IMPU'TED, pp. Charged to the account of; attributed; ascribed.[/b]

[b]IMPU'TER, n. One that imputes or attributes

IMPU'TING, ppr. Charging to the account of; attributing; ascribing.[/b]


Your response would be much appreciated.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

broclint wrote:
I too have been watching this thread and will have to agree with you Denver and Neil...

The original question and the repeat of the question has been clear enough, but the rants in between have been totally useless.

For the record, put me down on the side of those commentators who believe that we will be judged for our deeds rather than our fathers, et al. 2 Chronicles 25:1 and the following verses appear very clear on that point along with what has been quoted from Ezekiel 18:20 and the following verses. It would preposterous to say the least to be commanded repeatedly and warned repeatedly against the breaking of commands, and told repeatedly how we will be judged and for what we will be judged if it all had to do with what someone before us did.

Actually the whole long argument comes down to a moot point for those of us who have lived long enough to make some decisions on our own, because indeed we have all sinned.

I trust totally and completely the character of God who answered the prayer of Abraham for his less than noble nephew Lot. The judge of all the earth will do right.

My two bits :-)

Clint




 2009/5/4 15:07
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

In Jer 9:23,24 we read that God thinks very much of how we think of Him.

Barnes had this to say about the above verses...

Quote:
Unless men believe that God’s dealings with them in life and death are right and just, they can neither love nor reverence him.

 2009/5/4 19:09Profile









 Re: Doctrine, not opinions



Hello ceedub:

I posted some of this previously, but you must have missed it. I'll post again:

[b]Ceedub, your previously posted the following:[/b]

So being tempted is the same as sinning. Hebrews says Christ was tempted in every way just like us, yet without sin[b]. "I don't think a temptation is sin unless it is carried out"[/b]

[b]My response to the above:[/b]

[b]The Bible does not care about what we think. The Bible was given by God to present to mankind His thoughts and His positions and His Standard on all issues. To show mankind that His standard is above their sinful standard. For the Christian, the Bible is the Standard, the Bible is the anvil.

[Christ, when looking at a woman, even though she might have been totally nude,was never tempted with lust as man would be, as you or I would be.

Jesus Christ was the perfect man. He had to be, to take on the entire sin of humanity. He had to be sinless, in order to take on our sin--He who knew no sin became sin.]

The Bible disagrees with your opinion posted above. The Bible tells us that our sinful thoughts are considered to be sin—By just looking at another person in lust makes us just as guilty as committing the physical act of adultery with that person.

Please read the sermon on the Mount, by Jesus Christ
(Matt 5:1-48)
Here are several examples:
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, [b]That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.[/b]

21. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,[b] Thou shalt not kill[/b]; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22.[b] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.[/b]

Ceedub, you err, because you do not understand the Scriptures. The Scripture teaches us that within Jesus Christ was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. How can you possibly even compare yourself to God in the flesh, to Jesus Christ? He was sinless, and you and I are full of sin!:

Col 2:9-10
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Hebrews 4:15 says simply and clearly that He was "tempted in every way, just as (in exactly the same way as) we are."

Jesus' person as true God and as true man is a miracle beyond our understanding. If we could completely understand how he could be both fully God and fully man, we could understand better exactly what happened in Jesus when he was tempted. As true man, we can see that he could be tempted exactly the way we are, and as true God we can see how he could pass the test of each temptation and "yet was without sin--HE NEVER SINNED ONCE, BY THOUGHT OR DEED!!! (Hebrews 4:15).

Though we cannot fully understand how all this can be, we rejoice that God's Word tells us that he passed every temptation without sinning and so was the perfect Savior we needed who could pay the full price to take all our sins away. In Matthew 4:1-11 we have a clear example of Jesus being tempted by Satan who also tempts us. But we see how Jesus answered Satan each time with a Bible passage and passed each test without sinning.

Jesus' victory is also our victory because Jesus' perfect life (his active obedience, Galatians 4:4 "born under law to redeem those under law"), along with his suffering and death to pay for our sins (his passive obedience, 1 John 2:2), is credited to us by faith for our salvation.

When we "put on" Jesus Christ, when we accept Him as Lord and Savior, we are "in" Christ, & supernaturally we are "in" His perfection.

In sanctification we work out the implications of our union with Christ's death, burial and resurrection. We are one with him. He is the vine; we are the branches. We are united.

We died to sin, but we are raised with Christ. For what purpose? To live a new life. Now, there are a lot of people who profess to be born again and profess to be justified and be united with Jesus Christ. That doesn't make them Christians. Your profession doesn't make you a Christian. Look at what Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: Many would call him, "Lord, Lord." (Matthew 7:21-23) Your calling him, "Lord, Lord," does not make you a Christian. There are so many people in the Christian church who are not born again, who are not justified, who are not by faith united to Jesus Christ in his death and burial and resurrection, and they find sanctification to be what? An impossible task. Because of this the church just lowered the standard and said, "It's okay to live like the devil. It's all right. You just receive Jesus as Savior. We know that it is not easy to receive him as Lord." What the church should be saying is, "You must be born again." And where there is new birth and justification, there is also the divine work of sanctification.

So sanctification is really a working out of the implications of our union with Jesus Christ. Christ was raised from the dead, and with Christ we are also raised to live a new life of resurrection power. That's why we can say, "I can do all things through Jesus Christ who strengtheneth me." What we need is strength, and it is coming to me. The resurrection life is flowing into me and making me able to do what God wants me to do with all joy and delight.

Now the next point is that sanctification - victorious Christian life - is a life of choosing to obey. I don't think when we get to heaven we will have to choose between holiness and wickedness. I believe that sin will be completely dealt with and eradicated. The conflict will be over. Isn't that true? But now, from the moment you are born again, from the moment you are justified, you are led into an arena of battle and fighting and conflict. In your being there are now two contrary urgings.

Turn to Galatians 5:16: "So I say, live by the Spirit" - that is Holy Spirit here - "and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature." You see, the issue here is that the desire of sinful nature is registering in your being, in your consciousness. But not only is the desire of the sinful nature is registering in your consciousness, but the desire of the Holy Spirit is also registering in your consciousness. This, then, is the conflict. Some people say, "Well, this means I am not a Christian." Actually, this means you are a Christian. You didn't have any problem before. You didn't have any conflict before. But now you have a conflict because the divine life has entered into you. The Holy Spirit has come into you. You have been given a new nature, and the old sin did not go away. It is still in our members. So we read, "So I say, live by the Spirit" - in other words, obey the Spirit, follow the Spirit, listen to the Spirit, do what the Holy Spirit is prompting you to do - "and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is contrary to the sinful nature." The desires of the flesh and the desires of the Holy Spirit are mutually exclusive.

So the issue here is that IF I/YOU am born of God, then the Holy Spirit is dwelling in me. He is causing me to understand and do his desires, in opposition to the desires of the flesh that also register in my being at the same time. That's why I like the expression, "Endure hardship as a good soldier." Christian life is soldiering. You may want to sleep on. You may want to continue to sleep, but the Holy Spirit says this is the time for you to pray. So you have to make a decision. You have to choose between these two urgings. If you are a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit, you have the capacity to obey the Holy Spirit, thereby proving to the world that you are a child of God, that you are a Christian, that you are light and not darkness.[

Unless you or I accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, unless we are "in" Christ, we are "in" Adam and on our way to hell.
xxxxx

Also Ceedub, you stated this in your last post:

Walter, thanks for your responses. It's been enough if it is going to come to personal attacks that I'm like a JW that denies original sin.

On the contrary, I was all but forced out of the last church I attended along with a small group of others for not being willing to compromise on original sin, total depravity and the doctrines of grace.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My response:

If you came to our Church, with the beliefs that you have expressed here, we would ask you to join our New Believers Bible study. After studying God's Word, with young and old men alike, and you persisted in your false beliefs, we would be forced to ask you to leave as well.

Think nothing personal about what I said about the Mormons, the JW's, or any of the other cults out there. It was not a slam, it was the truth. Their belief's about sin mirror your own.

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/5/4 20:29
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Waltern...


Are you REALLY trying to pitch that temptation is sin? What your trying to say flies in the face of...

[u][b]1 Cor 10:13[/b][/u]

13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Sounds to me that one can resist temptation. Your pitching that if someone is tempting you, then you have already sinned???


Quote:
My response:

If you came to our Church, with the beliefs that you have expressed here, we would ask you to join our New Believers Bible study. After studying God's Word, with young and old men alike, and you persisted in your false beliefs, we would be forced to ask you to leave as well.

Think nothing personal about what I said about the Mormons, the JW's, or any of the other cults out there. It was not a slam, it was the truth. Their belief's about sin mirror your own.

Sincerely,

Walter




Waltern, your words are not in the spirit of Christ and smell of pure flesh.


_________________
Christiaan

 2009/5/4 23:24Profile





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