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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Adam's sin...our guilt?

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ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Is this the forum where I can get advice on how to hot-rod my Craftsman lawnmower?
No, that was another one. My mistake. Don't lock me.

Gal 6 Verse 5. For every man shall bear his own burden.

Quote:
Ver. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. This seems to be a kind of proverbial saying; and it means here, every man shall have his proper reward. If he is a virtuous man, he will be happy; if a vicious man, he will be miserable. If a virtuous man, he will have the source of happiness in himself; if a sinner, he must bear the proper penalty of his sin. In the great day, every man shall be properly rewarded. Knowing this, we should be little anxious about the sentiments of others, and should seek to maintain a good conscience towards God and man. The design of this passage is to prevent men from forming an improper estimate of themselves, and of the opinions of others. Let a man feel that he is soon to stand at the judgment-seat, and it will do much to keep him from an improper estimate of his own importance; let him feel that he must give an account to God, and that his great interests are to be determined by the estimate which God will affix to his character, and it will teach him that the opinion of the world is of little value. This will restrain his vanity and ambition. This will show him that the great business of life is to secure the favour of God, and to be prepared to give up his account; and there is no way so effectual of checking ambition, and subduing vanity and the love of applause, as to feel that we are soon to stand at the awful bar of God.



Barnes


I think it's fairly evident that we'll bear our own burden.

But will the tears that are wiped away be from the gut wrenching receiving of awesome grace that blots out our transgressions, or will they be from the confrontation of our sins that are being forgiven? I believe it's the former, but was raised to believe the latter. Thoughts on the Bema and what will be revealed, not revealed?

 2009/5/30 0:45Profile









 Re: Bear our own Burden



Sure would be nice to find something like this written today, wouldn't it?

XCIII.

THE REASON FOR BURDEN-BEARING.

" Bear ye one another's burdens, for every man shall bear his own burden."—GAL. vi. 2, 5.
Is not this a strange reason given for burden- bearing ? We could have understood the sequence better if it had been said, "Bear ye one another's burdens, for it is not right that any man should bear his own ; " but is it not strange to tell us, as a reason for bearing our brother's load, that " every man shall bear his own burden" ? No, it is not strange; it is sublimely, divinely beautiful.[b] What is the burden of which the apostle speaks ? It is the burden of temptation, the burden of being " overtaken in a fault." What he wants to say is this : Bear ye one another's temptations, for ye have all temptations of your own for which you equally will need charity. Thou that judgest thy brother, hast thou considered thyself? Hast thou considered that thou also hast a burden of temptation for which thy brother will need to extend charity to thee ? Thine may not be the same burden as thy brother's ; thou mayest be strong in the place wherein he is weak. But let not this be a boast to thee; there is a place wherein thou art weak and in which he is strong. When thou ascendest the throne of judgment, and when the books of thy brother's life are open to thy view, remember that thou too hast books to be opened. Remember that thou too hast in the recesses of thy heart sins that call for pardon, thoughts that await expiation, deeds that require atonement, desires that cry out to be purified ; remember this, and thou shalt bear with thy brother, and in thine hour of need thy brother shall bear with tbee.

My soul, wilt thou fulfil this royal law of Christ ? It is far in advance of the law of Moses ; the law of Moses said, " Thou shalt not hurt," but this says, " Thou shalt bear." It is not enough for thee not to injure thy brother; thou must help him, thou must succour him, thou must do him good. Wouldst thou be able to bear with his temptations ? Then must thou be conscious of thine own. How shalt thou be conscious of thine own ? Come to the Dayspring from on high. Stand before the gaze of the searching purity, the spotless holiness, the stainless sinlessness of the Son of Man. There, in the vision of His humanity, thy humanity shall sink low and lie abased in the dust. There, in the blaze of His unblemished sunshine, thy nickering light shall be extinguished, and thou shalt learn thy darkness. The knowledge of thy darkness shall be thy first true light; it shall waken thy sympathy with man. When thou hast felt the pressure of thine own burdens, thou shalt lift the burden of thy brother; and in lifting the burden of thy brother thine own load shall fall.

CAUSE OF UNCHARITABLENESS.[/b]

" But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another."—GAL. vi. 4.

[color=990000]PAUL says that the reason why men are so uncharitable is that they do not know themselves, do not prove their own work; they think of themselves " more highly than they ought to think." When we ask the apostle how it is that a frail, sinful man can believe himself to be pure, he answers, It is because he compares his own badness with the worse badness of others. That is what Paul means by rejoicing in another. I have only a small candle of virtue, quite unfit to guard my footsteps, but then my brother has only a taper. I go with my candle to his taper, and I weigh that which is little in me against that which is less in him. The comparison enchants me; I come home rejoicing. I feel myself a better man than I ever felt before ; I magnify the light of my candle. But Paul says, This is only rejoicing in another. You are only comparing your badness with the more pronounced badness of your neighbour. Why not have an absolute standard ? why not prove your own work on its own merits, and have rejoicing in yourself alone ? You have brought your candle to the taper, and your heart is glad; why not bring it to the sunlight ? Why not carry it out into the blaze of day and weigh it against the majestic fulness of the light of heaven ? If your candle could stand that ordeal, then indeed you might have rejoicing in yourself alone, and no longer in the mere knowledge that another is worse than you.[/color]

[b]My soul, thy light could not stand that ordeal. If thou shouldst bring thy candle into the blaze of day, it would have no glory by reason of the all-excelling glory. Wilt thou shrink from the ordeal that would prove thy nothingness--thou art not wise in shrinking from it. What thou needest to make thee human is just the proof of thy nothingness, just the vision of thyself in thy poverty and iii thy meanness. Go forth with thy candle into the light—the true Light that lighteth every man. Go forth into the presence, into the contact, of Him who is fairer than the children of men, the Chief among ten thousand, the altogether lovely. Go forth into the vision of that Sun of spotless righteousness that gathers no clouds upon His beams, la the hour when thou shalt behold Him thy candle shalt go out for evermore, aud thou shalt be in darkness to thyself. 0 glorious darkness born of higher light, 0 grand humility sprung from a loftier ideal, 0 proud dissatisfaction telling of an enlarged capacity, my heart will not shrink from thee. I shall cease to rejoice in myself when I have come to rejoice in the perfect day.[/b]

Moments on the mount: devotional meditations
By George Matheson

[url=http://books.google.com/books?id=WcwCAAAAQAAJ&output=text]Moments On The Mount by George Matheson[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

ceedub wrote:
Is this the forum where I can get advice on how to hot-rod my Craftsman lawnmower?
No, that was another one. My mistake. Don't lock me.

Gal 6 Verse 5. For every man shall bear his own burden.

Quote:
Ver. 5. For every man shall bear his own burden. This seems to be a kind of proverbial saying; and it means here, every man shall have his proper reward. If he is a virtuous man, he will be happy; if a vicious man, he will be miserable. If a virtuous man, he will have the source of happiness in himself; if a sinner, he must bear the proper penalty of his sin. In the great day, every man shall be properly rewarded. Knowing this, we should be little anxious about the sentiments of others, and should seek to maintain a good conscience towards God and man. The design of this passage is to prevent men from forming an improper estimate of themselves, and of the opinions of others. Let a man feel that he is soon to stand at the judgment-seat, and it will do much to keep him from an improper estimate of his own importance; let him feel that he must give an account to God, and that his great interests are to be determined by the estimate which God will affix to his character, and it will teach him that the opinion of the world is of little value. This will restrain his vanity and ambition. This will show him that the great business of life is to secure the favour of God, and to be prepared to give up his account; and there is no way so effectual of checking ambition, and subduing vanity and the love of applause, as to feel that we are soon to stand at the awful bar of God.



Barnes


I think it's fairly evident that we'll bear our own burden.

But will the tears that are wiped away be from the gut wrenching receiving of awesome grace that blots out our transgressions, or will they be from the confrontation of our sins that are being forgiven? I believe it's the former, but was raised to believe the latter. Thoughts on the Bema and what will be revealed, not revealed?



 2009/5/30 1:32









 Re: Adam's sin...our guilt?

Hello bro ceedub,

Quote:
I'm speaking on Romans 5:12 -21 in the near future

Has it happened by now? How did it go?

About the 'Bema Seat', is that a scriptural term? There have been threads here about it in the past, so maybe a search will give you some more reading. There was a poster here who believed in seven different judgements. That idea comes from a book someone wrote (no idea who), which was supposed to be founded on scripture. But... I don't 'read' that in the Book. In fact, I read recently while researching something else, (manuscripts), the the term 'book of life' in Revelation, was (apparently) originally 'tree of life'. Now, that's [i]interesting[/i]. I like it a LOT. 1 Sam 25:29
It makes me feel like the tree of life was the tree of connection to God, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the tree of separation from Him - like the cross was, for Jesus. I'm rambling now... I'll stop.

 2009/5/30 4:06
ceedub
Member



Joined: 2009/5/1
Posts: 215
Canada

 Re:

Guess the first question should have been 'to those who believe in a rapture'. The question stands though whether one believes in one or two judgements.

Why the tears in heaven?

 2009/5/30 17:24Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

DEATH IS NOT SIN < ORIGINAL SIN DOCTRINE IS A MESS AND MISUNDERSTOOD > YOUR POSTS VIEW IS NOT BIBLICAL > NOONE IS BORN A SINNER >WE ALL COME TO BE SINNERS AFTER WE ARE BORN !!!


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/6/3 19:09Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

No that is a lie, we know this by the psalmist who says he was in his mothers womb with iniquity.


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Indeed, I was born guilty. I was a sinner when my mother conceived me.

King James Bible
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American King James Version
Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Bible in Basic English
Truly, I was formed in evil, and in sin did my mother give me birth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Darby Bible Translation
Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

English Revised Version
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

World English Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.

Young's Literal Translation
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.
It doesn't matter about our age or if we knew better, we all our sinners from birth and our separated from God. You see the scripture is pretty clear also that when adam sinned the whole world came under condemnation,don't ignore what plain scripture tells us, to sit here with this false belief, i was not brought up in church but i know that the scripture teaches us to be born sinners because it says so, the problem is do we want to believe the scripture.

 2009/6/3 20:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
No that is a lie, we know this by the psalmist who says he was in his mothers womb with iniquity.


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

It doesn't matter about our age or if we knew better, we all our sinners from birth and our separated from God. You see the scripture is pretty clear also that when adam sinned the whole world came under condemnation,don't ignore what plain scripture tells us, to sit here with this false belief, i was not brought up in church but i know that the scripture teaches us to be born sinners because it says so, the problem is do we want to believe the scripture.


This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way.

Psalms 51:5 does not teach that David was born into sin. You should bear in mind the style of writing involved. This is a psalm--a poem in which David is pouring out his heart before God. As a general rule, the poetic writings such as the Psalms, Proverbs and Song of Songs should not be read as a source of correct doctrine, especially for a Christian. The Psalms should be read principally as an example of the kind of relationship we should have with our Father in Heaven. The technical term for what David is doing here is hyperbole. A hyperbole is an expression in which a writer expresses his or herself on purpose in an exaggerated way in order to make a point. When we say to a friend "You are killing me." we are using
hyperbole. When David says in [b]Psalms 22:9[/b] [color=990000]you made me trust you even even
at my mother's breast[/color] he is using hyperbole. First, does God "make" us trust him? No.
Did David already trust in God as a new born infant?
Of course not.
David is using hyperbole to express in the strongest terms an emotion he is feeling about God. That is what is going on in Psalms 51:5.

The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject of this verse is [b]NOT[/b] the state or constitution of David's nature as a sinner at, or before, his birth. The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the `circumstances' of his conception.
Psalm 51:5 merely refers to the fact that David was born into a sinful environment; temptation being all around. We all are conceived in, and brought forth into, a sinful world. But we do not actually “sin” against God until we arrive at a stage of spiritual responsibility.

 2009/6/3 22:05Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

that is not what david is saying in that verse.

 2009/6/3 22:55Profile









 Re:

"This is a psalm--a poem in which David is pouring out his heart before God. As a general rule, the poetic writings such as the Psalms, Proverbs and Song of Songs should not be read as a source of correct doctrine, especially for a Christian." Logic

I guess this sums it up for me. Let it be known to all here that Logic, by his own quote above, is saying that the Books of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs SHOULD NOT BE READ as a source for 'CORRECT' doctrine. They are just poetic writings, nothing more in terms of doctrinal truth. Hopefully Logic himself in all his past posts has never once used any of these books to back up or justify any of his theologies or correct doctrine.

Is there any dispute that David, Moses and Solomon were speaking in the Holy Spirit in these three books that represent The Word of God??

And what does Scripture say about these books of Psalms, Proverbs, and Song of Songs as it pertains to God Himself?

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

"ALL SCRIPTURE". "GOD-BREATHED". "USEFUL FOR TEACHING". "USEFUL FOR REBUKING". "CORRECTING". "TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS".


Paul himself spoke of sin in us:

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

If you want to interject 'flesh' with sin nature that's fine. Flesh is inherently sinful. To say it is not is to say it's Godly. It's one or the other. We are born into the world as flesh, not as Spirit. We are not born into the world born-again. We may sin in ignorance but we sin just the same. We may not be culpable for our sin as a toddler but our propensity is not a righteous, Spirit-filled disposition.

I have never found ANY infant to ever, in their ignorance, maintain a righteous behavior or disposition as if this is their natural propensity. I've never seen any toddler display a natural selfless disposition that we can only attain via the Holy Spirit after we are born again. It's just not there.



 2009/6/4 8:12









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?


Hello everyone,

I don't have time to merry-go-round with y'all on this topic, for the moment, so I recommend Alan Martin's exposition preached on Tuesday at the Barnsdall Revival Conference.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=18721]True Revival: The Righteousness of God in Man[/url]

Excellent! 8-)

 2009/6/4 11:26





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