SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Adam's sin...our guilt?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 Next Page )
PosterThread
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The righteous don't need to repent.



The righteous also don't need a Christ.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/5/22 16:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
The righteous don't need to repent.



The righteous also don't need a Christ.



Except for the Blood of Jesus that cancels out Adam's transgression, you sre correct.

So why the need for being born again?

 2009/5/22 16:39









 Re: Adams sin, our sin


[b][color=660000]To passerby, INTENSE, & Logic (NOT Alive-to-God)

All of us are in one of two places on this earth during our lifetimes. We are either "in Adam" or "in Christ". We are all born into the first place --"in Adam". If we never leave this place, then we will spend eternity in hell, with Satan and his demons. However, if we come to belief in Jesus Christ, then we are "in Christ" and will spend eternity "hid with Christ in God". It is very simple, we have a choice to make, we can either spend eternity with Satan in Hell, or eternity with Christ in Heaven.[/color][/b]



Passerby posted:

Quote:
[b]Adam's sin, our guilt?

I believe we are guilty because of the sins we have committed ourselves, not because of the sin of Adam. .........

[/b]

When I challenged passerby to support his "belief" with Scripture from the Old and New Testament, this was his reponse:

Quote:
[b] "Well, I am following the discussion and a lot had been said already that supports or denies the position being discussed either directly or indirectly,"
”

[/b]

I knew that passerby would have no scripture from the Bible to support his position that people are born sinless, without a sin nature.

This tells me that passerby is most probably from the Mormon faith, which is a cult, or he could also be from The International Church of Christ (a cult). When the Mormon believer looks at Scripture (The Bible- The Old Testament & the New Testament), they are viewing it through the false lens, the false doctrine, that is found in the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and the Covenants of the Mormon Church.

[b]There are numerous cults that deny the concept of original sin. The Bahá'í's say man is born good and that we need education to reform ourselves. Likewise their predecessors Islam also teaches their is no original sin.
The Mormon church also denies it by saying that Adam did not fall from his state of innocence downward but actually fell upward. That by listening to the devils lies it actually gave him the opportunity to become a God. So in essence the Devil told the truth. (Jesus said the opposite that he was a liar and a murderer from the beginning).[/b]

Others like the [b]Catholic church teach that the original sin in man can be erased by baptism[/b] and that we then sin of our own choice, it is then dealt with by taking the sacraments, rather than what the Bible tells us—to REPENT & BELIEVE (A lifelong process, after salvation), that does not require the sacraments, or confession to a "priest".

[b][color=660000]Both Alive-to-God and Logic fall into the beliefs of the International Church of Christ, another cult:[/color][/b]
[b]The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his SIN NATURE.

They believe one must believe in Jesus, repent, bear all the fruits of a disciple, and experience water baptism (in that order) to be saved. Christian theology states that you only have to believe. Since this cult considers a Christian who commits a sin to be unsaved in the first place, they separate from Christian theology concerning repentance. So the only agreement that can be made is belief in our Lord Jesus Christ. But unlike the thinking of this cult, the Christian belief is not just in the existence of Jesus as even the demons believe, but rather a belief that leads to repentance and obedience. For the Christian, all works, except believing, are done after salvation. And the conditions for remaining saved are the same as for getting saved.

Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

Alive-to-God wrote:
Greetings all,

Quote:
I believe we are guilty because of the sins we have committed ourselves, not because of the sin of Adam. I may have read it wrongly but I don't think 'logic' believes 'that mankind has "inherited guilt" from Adam', so with his friend Jesse Morrell who refutes the 'doctrine of Original Sin'.

I don't believe in 'inherited guilt' either. But it is impossible to ignore the implications of Rom 5:14 and 1 Cor 15:22. Our [i][b]sense[/i][/b] of guilt is a gift to us from God, in the [u]light[/u] of the Mosaic law, (John 3:17) because it turns us to repentance, but, if that 'conviction of sin' is merely intellectual assent to our need of Christ (Saviour), it will not bring us to honest repentance. We need the Holy Spirit to work in us, as Jesus promised He would - John 16:8.


 2009/5/22 16:39
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Intense,

I think I asked you this, but I don't remember if you responded: where do you attend church locally? I don't want to contact them or anything, I'm just curious.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/5/22 16:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Intense,

I think I asked you this, but I don't remember if you responded: where do you attend church locally? I don't want to contact them or anything, I'm just curious.



I don't any longer and that after many years of faithful attendance.

 2009/5/22 16:58









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Hi waltern,

Thank you for the breakdown of what the different denominations believe. I feel you've jumped to a conclusion about my position, when you said:

Quote:
Both Alive-to-God and Logic fall into the beliefs of the International Church of Christ, another cult:
The International Church of Christ believes that everyone inherits the consequence of Adam's sin (physical death), and not his SIN NATURE.

They believe one must believe in Jesus, repent, bear all the fruits of a disciple, and experience water baptism (in that order) to be saved. Christian theology states that you only have to believe. Since this cult considers a Christian who commits a sin to be unsaved in the first place, they separate from Christian theology concerning repentance. So the only agreement that can be made is belief in our Lord Jesus Christ. But unlike the thinking of this cult, the Christian belief is not just in the existence of Jesus as even the demons believe, but rather a belief that leads to repentance and obedience. For the Christian, all works, except believing, are done after salvation. And the conditions for remaining saved are the same as for getting saved.

I've edited my post at the end of the previous page, in view of your post to me, to make clear that I do believe in 'original sin'; I had posted to comment on the concept of 'inherited guilt', only.

Earlier in the thread I said Adam died spiritually - as a result of which his physical body also was sentenced to death, and he did 'die'. I have also promoted the doctrine of baptism into Christ's death, for 'newness of life' to be possible.

The comment from Intense
'The righteous don't need to repent' moves the conversation further away from the overall message of Jesus Christ. And
Quote:
Except for the Blood of Jesus that cancels out Adam's transgression, you sre correct.

this statement also seems to neglect the spiritual aspect of both what happened in Eden, and, through the death of Christ on the cross.

Quote:
So why the need for being born again?

This seems to be a reasonable question from one who does not believe in original sin. I have not forgotten John 3:14, 15.





 2009/5/22 17:53
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Say that there was a man who never sinned in his life, then died.

Him before God:
God - You are guilty
Man - Of what?
God - Of sin
Man - I never committed sin
God - You are guilty because you were in Adam
Man - I had not control in that, how am I guilty?
God - ???

I know, y'all will say that it is impossible for a man never to sin.

But then how is one guilty if sin is inevitable?
How is one guilty if sin is unavoidable/inevitable?
If there is no choice in the matter, how is one culpable?

I know, y'all will say that man always [b]CHOOSES[/b] to sin, and His choice to always sin makes Him guilty.

If that is true, then how do non-Christians choose not to sin every day?
Non-Christians choose not to lie, steel, murder...etc...

How do you say that non-Christians always choose to sin; when, in fact, they don't.

I know, y'all will say that man will always sin [b]eventually[/b].

Then you're saying that sin is inevitable.
This goes back to my question:
How is one guilty if sin is unavoidable/inevitable?

(Coming soon:
The conclusion)

 2009/5/22 17:59Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

Man is never forced to sin, so I'll just skip over your first few questions. You presumed the response correctly, man always chooses to sin.

Regarding your proposed question, "how is that non-Christians choose not to sin every day?"..

Firstly, let's get a high view of sin. Not working to the utmost of your ability every moment of your working day is stealing from your employer; getting angry with anyone throughout the day is murder. So, I think there is much more sin going on than we even realize.

Secondly, and even more importantly, unbelievers are in a constant state of sin. In fact, there is not a second throughout the day where they are not actively sinning. Why? Because they are constantly throughout the day not believing in Jesus Christ to the salvation of their souls. Belief in the gospel is a command, not an offer, and they are in constant rejection and disobedience of that command, therefore, they are in constant, never-ending sin.

So, just some observations: no sincere believer who believes in a federal theology (Adam as the federal head and representative of the human race - his sin imputed to us; Christ as the federal head of the redeemed - his righteousness imputed to us) approaches the day with an "well, sin is inevitable, so who gives a rip about holiness!" attitude. In fact, I would say there is a sincere effort to not sin throughout the day. However, at the end of day, we must pray as the Lord taught us - "forgive us of our trespasses" - because we do not claim to be wiser than the Lord in how we should pray. If we are not aware of sin, we know that the thrice holy God of heaven is aware of plenty.

Can Christians choose not to sin? Yes, by God's grace. Are they perfect in this? Sadly, no. We make no excuses about it and confess our transgressions as our Lord and his Apostles taught us.

The fact that all men will inevitably eventually sin sometime in their life has no logical connection with not being held guilty for that sin. In fact, your own theology in other areas possibly betrays your argumentation. For example, I assume your own view is that Christ died for all men, therefore, that sheer fact alone would necessitate the fact that inevitably all men were in fact sinners or would be sinners in the future. Yet, the entire world is still guilty of sin.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2009/5/23 22:58Profile









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because ...

Note: the Holy Spirit is necessary to 'convince the world' of 'righteousness'. Food for thought. This is God Himself (no longer the law applied externally) coming as 'the true Light which lighteneth every man' - John 1:9.

Taylor said

Quote:
Secondly, and even more importantly, unbelievers are in a constant state of sin. In fact, there is not a second throughout the day where they are not actively sinning. Why? Because they are constantly throughout the day not believing in Jesus Christ to the salvation of their souls.

Amen.

Yesterday I listened to Paul Washer's '[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=16678]The True Gospel[/url]', which someone had sent me from youtube. It is well worth listening through, for an exceptionally full and biblical exposition of 'the gospel' and why God thought it not only necessary, but possible, to send [u]one[/u] Man to die for the sin of [i]the whole of mankind[/i].

Paul Washer quotes 'an obscure verse in Proverbs' on which to hang his thesis. I learned a lot. :-)

 2009/5/24 2:52









 Re:

[color=000000]Adam never became spiritually dead, not in the sense you all would have it be dead. Abel testifies to that, not to mention Enoch and Noah, Job. All four were merely separated from the ACTUAL presence of God because of Adam's transgression. Righteous man is throughout the OT. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO GET THAT FACT INTO THE MIND? If you know the accounts, IS IT NOT A FACT OF TRUTH, WHEN THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE TO THE CONTRARY? The blood of mankind became contaminated because Adam transgressed. Man, born into this contamination, by virtue of the fact that he was born into it cannot of himself, reverse it. WHY IS THAT SO DIFFICULT TO GRASP? Don't you understand that that is what makes the "UN-TRANSGRESSED" BLOOD of Jesus Christ so precious, inasmuch as it CANCELS OUT the offense! Man is now set free and can now enter into the ACTUAL presence of God once again. . . . When absent from the body: No more grave, no more Paradise below, no more held captive by death!! It is NOT truth that, outside the Jesus Christ, man will always choose sin. That is a lie. If man is blind to sin he is not guilty. Jesus said so. Look it up. This is all elementary stuff argued over because of a wrong understanding in the attempt to fathom out redemption. It cannot be fathomed out without considering or if you are going to willfully ignore, God's original intention for creating mankind, set in His REALITY before the foundation of the world[s].[/color]

[color=000000]Without "screwing it up" to make it say what I am NOT saying, is this all not, true?[/color]

 2009/5/24 6:24





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy