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 Re:

Intense, just another thing because when you post longer posts, they express much better what you do believe.
At the end of page 20, you were a bit sharp with our Brother and "love" is the key to being told "Well done My good and faithful 'servant'."


You see Brother - you had Alive-to-GOD defending the Deity of Christ with all that was in him - when you could have just plainly stated that "I believe the Logos is Eternal God - but that the Son was 'begotten on a specific "day"' - ie. not the Eternal Son.

Both ceedub and Alive-to-GOD were quite polite and I was just sitting back praying that you'd see what they were 'trying' to communicate to you or that they [i]were[/i] communicating with you and hoping that is what you are here for - to 'communicate' with fellow servants.


GOD Bless you.

 2009/5/10 17:28









 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Yes, of course.

This one sentence, without knowing that you did believe in His - The Logos' eternal Deity could be read two ways ---

[i]"Why is so hard for you to see Jesus, son of Man as not being divine before He was made so?"[/i]

It could be read that HE was 'made Divine'.



He was and made more because He became the Author of our divine life, the possibility to become as He is. Don't you realize you and I, by virtue of being born again from above, have the same life in us that He had in His human life by being born of Mary? Now, are we divine or are we re-born to be made divine? Is God's Nature imputed? Yes. Is His Character imputed? No. It is imparted as we grow in wisdom and stature leading ultimately to the full stature of Christ. In His 30 silent years He learned the Father? Is this not what are to be about when we become born again? Yes.

Ask yourself the question: Why did God have to give Jesus anything? When you do and think it through, you will see Jesus experienced everything a human, this side of glory can experience in the Father, i.e., consummate intimacy, nothing more. . . until his transfiguration when the Word of Him and His human nature became, in all actuality, inseparable. As Chambers puts it: "He could have kept on going as Lord but would never have been savior" However, while still in His Glorified state and because of His love, said no to the glory and willingly returned to the limitation of His humanity [consummate intimacy state of being with the Father] to make it possible for us tobecome as He is. Think I am wrong? Why did He sweat as great drops of blood in the garden?


Quote:
And this next sentence I just didn't agree with - that's all.

[i]"And again, why didn't God personally call Him His son before His water-Holy Ghost baptisms."[/i]

HE publically declared HIM to be the Son - but I wouldn't have said that HE hadn't 'called' HIM Son before that day, on other days or ways.


Thanks again!



I was specifically asking for this from the Father:

"This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."

You can't find it but twice in the scriptures: At His Baptism and His Transfiguration. Thats it.

 2009/5/10 17:44









 Re:

[color=000000]

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
Intense, just another thing because when you post longer posts, they express much better what you do believe.
At the end of page 20, you were a bit sharp with our Brother and "love" is the key to being told "Well done My good and faithful 'servant'."


You see Brother - you had Alive-to-GOD defending the Deity of Christ with all that was in him - when you could have just plainly stated that "I believe the Logos is Eternal God - but that the Son was 'begotten on a specific "day"' - ie. not the Eternal Son.

Both ceedub and Alive-to-GOD were quite polite and I was just sitting back praying that you'd see what they were 'trying' to communicate to you or that they [i]were[/i] communicating with you and hoping that is what you are here for - to 'communicate' with fellow servants.


GOD Bless you.



Thank you for that. I hope you will be as keen to recognize when my objective questions, intended to point up subjectivity, are ignored and my words misrepresented by those who oppose my view. And haven't you noticed, no one ever says, Gee, you are right, never saw it it that way before?[/color]

 2009/5/10 17:52









 Re:

I suppose you're not counting Mary? Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David


Oh boy - I have a question on this --

I said: It could be read that HE was 'made Divine'.

You said: He was and made more


How can GOD by made Divine and made more divine?

HE was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.

How can GOD be made 'more' GOD?



In another place you said that we become "as God - Divine"


There is no Scripture for that.

The closest we will come is to be "like" HIM when we 'see' HIM. "Like" meaning "similar" but not 'as' GOD. To be "as GOD" is "to Be GOD" --- don't you think so?

 2009/5/10 18:47









 Re:

Quote:

Intense wrote:


Thank you for that. I hope you will be as keen to recognize when my objective questions, intended to point up subjectivity, are ignored and my words misrepresented by those who oppose my view. And haven't you noticed, no one ever says, Gee, you are right, never saw it it that way before?



Brother, I've followed this thread enjoying it much but at some point, what happened was the communication break down. Maybe because you were feeling on overload with two folks posting to you on page 19 or 20.

I think to just speak more plainly - like the Koine Greek used in the N.T. was the street language - I understand plain talk and you post well when you use more words, as I said. We may not all agree but at least we understand one another then.

I don't think your words were "misrepresented" but were "misunderstood" and I tried to show where. That's all. Keep at it and have patience with us as well. We're all new to each other and text communicating is the hardest method of all. amen.

 2009/5/10 18:55









 Re:

Quote:

Jesus-is-GOD wrote:
I suppose you're not counting Mary? Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David



I have made it quite clear that God never called Jesus His son except twice in the NT. So no, Mary is out.


Quote:
Oh boy - I have a question on this --

I said: It could be read that HE was 'made Divine'.

You said: He was and made more


How can GOD by made Divine and made more divine?{/quote]

[color=000000]Is this to be about trying to trip me up? I am done with this discuss if it is.[/color]

I didn't say more 'divine", did I? However,Jesus wasn't divine until His Transfiguration which was further made complete at His ascension. He earned it by obedience. That i sgood Bible. Does God "earn" anything by being obedient? He is the originator of all creation.

Quote:
HE was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth.

How can GOD be made 'more' GOD?



God was the Author of creation, Jesus became the Author of our salvation. . . By obedience He became so.

Quote:
In another place you said that we become "as God - Divine"

There is no Scripture for that.



What do you believe joint-heir-ship with Jesus means? How about The Body of Christ with Him as the Head? Or His Bride where the two are one? What does that all say to you?

Quote:
The closest we will come is to be "like" HIM when we 'see' HIM. "Like" meaning "similar" but not 'as' GOD. To be "as GOD" is "to Be GOD" --- don't you think so?



Really?? What commentary did you read that out of?We will be like Him, as He is. What do believe He is, having received a glorified body. I believe He is God

 2009/5/10 19:19









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Hello again, Intense,

This post has turned out to be longer than I expected, but it's worth bringing verse to mind which don't seem to go with your theory of God not having a Son until Jesus is born. Later, I bring some verses about the limitations of our God-likeness, and ask a few questions.

I've been thinking about the verses which don't figure in your article, which I've brought to your attention, which you haven't yet explained within your theory. They are Acts 20:28 and the passage from Eph 1, particularly 'he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world ... his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood'. I hope you can agree that the Son is 'the beloved' from before creation.

In the article you raised the question of whether Jesus was God's second son, and declared by implication that He was not. This raises the question of one New Testament definition of Adam in Luke 3:38 - Adam, which was [the son] of God.

The explanation for Luke's statement is that Adam was modeled on the eternal, unchanging, spiritual Son. His eternal Sonship cannot in question. Additionally, Paul repeats his claim of Acts 13 regarding Psa 2:7 when in Rom 1:4 he says 'declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.' I notice you didn't include this verse in the article, but did include the preceding one Rom 1:3, when you wished to emphasise Christ's humanity.

The verses which follow have come to mind in the order they appear. They all bring something of the eternal nature of the Son, or His work, into view.

Heb 13:20 'Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, [u]through the blood of the everlasting covenant[/u]', which you don't seem to have reckoned with - that the New Covenant is between the Father and the Son from eternity, and we can be joined to it through faith in the Son's part on our behalf.

Throughout scripture since the fall, God intends us to become 'like' Him only one way - through faith in His Son. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ... 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:' Note the word 'measure', twice?

Any other route is out of bounds. 2 Peter 1:2 '... to you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1 Cor 6:17, 1 Cor 12:13, Eph 2:18, Eph 5:18

1 John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Gen 3: 6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat...' Matthew 4:4

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory [u]which I had with thee before the world was[/u].

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: [u]for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world[/u]. John 17

John 10:30, I and [my] Father are one.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but [u]my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven[/u]. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35 And [u]Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life[/u]: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 [u]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me[/u]. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 [u]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life[/u]: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Please also would you explain how it is possible for Paul to write this of creation using the pronoun 'his', if [u]He[/u] did not exist then? Romans 1:20

Lastly, when He said 'a body hast thou prepared me' (Heb 10:5), where was 'He' before He was in that 'body'? Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Spiritual 'ears' I guess, but nevertheless attributes of a [i]Person[/i] of the Godhead.


Now, I'd like to return to the matter of Adam and the trees. If God forbade him to eat of the tree of life [i]after[/i] eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what makes you think that reversing the order would have been okay with God - thus producing the same result of living for ever knowing good and evil?

I didn't quite ask, previously, but now I do ask... how would that be okay by your reckoning, if God has already clearly pronounced that they should not have eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [u]and[/u] live for ever? Gen 22, 23.



I hope you'll be able to reply, but no hurry. There may be other verses to consider but these presented theselves most easily.

Blessings.

 2009/5/10 21:10









 Re:

Dear Alive,

I am sorry however, I am not going to reply to your last. Two simple reasons, you have yet to explain how it is that God could beget a son in Heaven, without a wife. Explain that and all the verses you have presented will read differently to you. Secondly, your introducing random thought that has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter as in being, "all over the map". We are addressing only Jesus having been born sinlessly into humanity and the reason[s] of the necessity for it to be as it was; why it was that the Word of Him "emptied Himself" that Jesus had only His relationship with His Father to rely upon and how it was His allegiance to His Father sustained Him.

That is it for me. Trying to disprove me on other matters, i.e., Tree of life/knowledge of good and evil, are other side issues I'd be most happy to take up with you however, for now they serve only to derail.
I leave you with this simple question:If you can see your way clear to understand if you are born again that, by faith, you carry about in you the same Nature Jesus possessed. What does that make you? Being confident you will not answer the first question, I ask you to confine your answer to this last one. Please.

FWIW: Major Ian Thomas has an audio sermon called, "Calculated for Revolution". I highly recomend you hear it.

 2009/5/11 3:07









 S'chma, hear me!

I am a nobody, I am no Holy Ghost referee, but this thread brings no Glory to God, and you all know it. It's just religious opinion, posturing, and pride, that is neither edifying, nor "iron sharpening iron", dont even deign to attribute those concepts to this thread long gone off the rails....so stop, please.

in Jesus love, neil

 2009/5/11 7:46









 Re: Adam's sin ... our guilt?

Dear brother Neil, :-D

Greetings Intense,

Quote:
you have yet to explain how it is that God could beget a son in Heaven, without a wife

Indeed it would have been impossible for Him 'without a wife'.
Quote:
your introducing random thought that has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter as in being, "all over the map".

I appreciate your further explanation of what you were discussing, but biblical theology necessitates the use of the whole Book. You may wish to discard some verses which are hard to fit into your scheme, but that is always the test of our having tuned into the magnitude of God's revelation of Himself - that we are not dismayed when we can't explain His word neverso neatly.
Quote:
I leave you with this simple question:If you can see your way clear to understand if you are born again that, by faith, you carry about in you the same Nature Jesus possessed. What does that make you?

Dead to sin, self and the world, and alive unto God!
Quote:
Being confident you will not answer the first question, I ask you to confine your answer to this last one. Please.

Okay. I won't tell you the answer to the first question right now. Please feel free to change your mind at any time. ;-)

Blessings.

 2009/5/11 9:18





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