| Re: Tea Party's|
crsschk - great points! I think you were right on!
| 2009/4/19 16:09||Profile|
| Re: |
"If the Jews hated taxes to Rome, I don't think they were looking for Jesus to confirm that hatred, but to find out if they could trip Him up by getting Him to say that He didn't want to pay taxes to Rome - because by the time they asked Him, they had made up their minds to find a way to kill Him. They wanted Him in trouble with the authorities." Alive to God
I have to agree with you here. Your version of this is probably the more accurate in terms of the motivation of the Jews. But in general the Jews did not want to be dominated by an ungodly Government. I don't think Jesus said what He said just as a clever counterpoint to the Jewish leadership. He was still speaking on behalf of His Father as was the case in everything He did. And this oppression of the Jews was a necessary punishment due the OT church for years of hypocricy and lukewarm living. I don't think many people parallel these things to today. The true church, in my opinion, needs to stay out of the fray of politics for it could very well be a judgement upon us just like the Jews. Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John all stayed out of political movements. Sure Paul 'stuck it to the man' a few times by invoking his rights as a Roman. BUT this was a reaction to an event he had no control over... he was arrested. He didn't proactively go out of his way to engage in politics, nor did he lead a movement in similarity. I'm not against sticking it to the man as Paul did when in front of the local Roman leadership. But this was the exception rather than the rule and it was, in fact, a mechanism to minister to one of the leaders who the Bible says listened intently and was somewhat moved by what Paul had said.
I believe that it's easier to speak against an oppressive gov't than a lukewarm church. I find this evident with the current Tea Party movement. We need a Tea Party against the Church first. It is obvious to the unsaved that the dominant, mainstream, Christian church looks pretty much like them yet somehow still forgiven and still capable of compromising God's word to achieve political influence. That's not an indictment against the Tea Party folks but all those politicians and those who support them who say that they are a follower of Christ, yet engage in all of the haenous activities that go agaist God just to get elected. These are those who use Christ for votes and influence yet live differently than anything they espouse. God can't be fooled, this gov't today could be a God ordained judgment against a hypocritical Church who has chosen political influence over Godly living and simple faith.
| 2009/4/19 16:15|
| Re: |
"God can't be fooled, this gov't today could be a God ordained judgment against a hypocritical Church who has chosen political influence over Godly living and simple faith."
| 2009/4/19 16:23|
| Re: Tea Parties|
I just wanted to thank you for this.
It should be noted for historical context the main reason the Jews were troubled over paying taxes was because the coinage in that day had Caesar's image on it. Being that Caesar was treated literally as being a god, the coinage was looked at by the Jews as idolatrous in nature. This, also in part, is why the money changers existed in the temple. The Jews wanted any money given to the temple treasury to be free from idolatrous contamination. Thus, the money changers would exchange currency for these purposes.
ccrider, thanks for the acknowledgement. I want to second the Amen of appolus for this comment, as it occurred to me during this thread, that God has used oppressive governments in the past, to discipline His people while they are in captivity.
God can't be fooled, this gov't today could be a God ordained judgment against a hypocritical Church who has chosen political influence over Godly living and simple faith.
| 2009/4/19 16:52|
| Re: |
those politicians and those who support them who say that they are a follower of Christ, yet engage in all of the heinous activities that go against God just to get elected. These are those who use Christ for votes and influence yet live differently than anything they espouse.
I was going to stay out of this discussion but this statement challenges my resolve...on the other hand this may be all I will say, who knows, being a woman and one who can easily change her mind! :-)
My comment: politically, Mississippi is conservative. The politicians use 'religion' to appeal to the religious folks in the state. And they are good at it, I promise. The late governor Kirk Fordice was very good at it. So was Congressman Chip Pickering - he served as a missionary in Hungary as a young man and so on...these guys espouse 'family values' only to violate them in the worst way. (By the grace of God Fordice had reconciled with his wife before his death.) If it repulses me I wonder how God feels - I know what he thinks but I wonder how much longer can this go on before they trigger his anger?
From observing Mississippian politicians one can easily see how they will use whatever it takes to get elected and in this state it is 'religion - God' and family values. So, then in voting for them are we becoming an enabler in their continuing sin? Oh, I forgot - most are Calvinists who believe in OSAS... :-(
| 2009/4/19 17:03||Profile|
| Re: |
Regarding such matters, we should take into account the full counsel of God and move according to the direction of the Holy Spirit. Some will be called to pray, others to action--doing all things in the spirit of love, for we are ambassadors for Christ in this fallen world. We once were as they are: lost and without hope in the world, until we heard the Good News--let us not become arrogant or boastful.
This nation was never designed to be run by the government, but it is to be run by the people; the government is our servant; the will of the people must be made known, and the voice of reason must be heard while we still have the freedom to declare our position.
This nation is a gift to us from God: He is our King, and it is in His name that we place our trust. We are called to take an active role as regards the direction of our great nation, first and foremost as Christians (aka citizens of heaven), but as Americans second.
Paul never renounced his Roman citizenship, nor should we renounce ours as Americans. The blood of our forefathers cries out to preserve our freedom, that we might speak truth freely and openly in love. Blood bought our freedom in Christ Jesus, and blood bought our freedom in this great nation. We are in the world, not of it; indeed, we must conduct ourselves wisely, redeeming the time.
I have seen firsthand the effects of socialism and communism; both crush and diminish the human spirit--these are evil systems. This nation allows the fullest freedom of the human spirit--and yes, that can be abused, and has been--but for the sake of openness to spreading the gospel, we should wish to preserve and hold dear all that was bought for us with precious blood!!
I adjure you to do a refresher in reviewing the documents that we as Americans hold dear: The Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence.
US Bill of Rights
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
May we conduct ourselves in wisdom and godliness.
Grace and peace to all.
| 2009/4/19 17:07||Profile|
| Re: |
Great points Run2Win! Now only if Apolus would get this!
"Paul never renounced his Roman citizenship, nor should we renounce ours as Americans."
Christ is King. He is ultimately to whom we live and stand for. In the midst of our lives spent for Christ, we too have every right and freedom under God AND U.S. law to voice our concern, opinion, and reason. After all, as you said Run2Win... "This nation was never designed to be run by the government, but it is to be run by the people; the government is our servant; the will of the people must be made known, and the voice of reason must be heard while we still have the freedom to declare our position." which is quite different then Caesar's days.
Apparently Apolus is still under Caesar's rule... ?
| 2009/4/20 9:21||Profile|
| Re: |
Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.
But when Paul had appealed to be reserved unto the hearing of Augustus, I commanded him to be kept till I might send him to Caesar.
But when I found that he had committed nothing worthy of death, and that he himself hath appealed to Augustus, I have determined to send him.
Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, [i][b][u]if[/u][/b][/i] he had not appealed unto Caesar.
| 2009/4/20 12:08||Profile|
| Re: |
HI Heartsong, praise God for a Scripture. Opinions only go so far, philosophies come and go, If the Lord tarries another 100 years perhaps democracy will be long gone, but His Word shall remain, unchanged forever.
Hi Ben, you write....
"the will of the people must be made known, and the voice of reason must be heard while we still have the freedom to declare our position." which is quite different then Caesar's days."
My freedom was wrought for me on Calvary. The freedom that I have is the freedom that I have in Christ. No political force can give it to me and no political force can take it away from me. If God says "speak," then I will speak. If God says "move," then I will move. Its that simple. I have no rights in this world, only the right to serve my Lord and Saviour Jesus. They persecuted and scourged and killed Him, they may do the same to me or any brother or sister in Christ. As long as they do it to me for the cause of Christ then so be it. Life is too short to live in fear and paranoi. I have no idea what the future holds, but I know that He holds it. To live in the future is to suspend the present. God Himself commands us to live one day at a time , for sufficiant for the day is the evil thereof. He commands us to be anxious for nothing, commands us. If we expect, as Christians, to walk in the peace that surpasses all understanding, we have to be anxious for nothing, we have to recognize that this kind of fear is not only the opposite of faith, it is sin. I have no fear of the future because the Lord told me by His word that "the steps of a righteous man are ordered of God."
So brother, if you want to thrash around in the world, then that is your walk and you answer to Him, not to me. I will not be entangled in the things of the world. Tony Perkins repeated on Sunday the oft repeated statistic. One third of Americans claim to be born-again. If, in this coming year, every one of those 100 million people brought one person to Christ, one person, let me repeat, one person, then 100 million people would be saved in the most overwhelming revival the world has ever seen. Not only would the country be radically changed overnight with crime and abortion and Homosexuality and murder being slashed to an unbeleivably small number, but the world would be enourmously transformed as the vast resources of this great nation was turned towards the purposes of God. And all this brother, and all of this, by bringing one person to the Lord, each and every one of us. Now, you really want to change the world? Let us all get on our knees and cry out to the living God for forgiveness, forgiveness for the luke-warmness that leads people to be cynical about what I have just said. Forgiveness for taking our eyes of Jesus, forgiveness for our fear which is no different to the fear of the Israelites in the desert who wondered where their next meal or their water was going to come from even although they had personally witnessed some of the mightiest miracles that God has ever performed. God's heart was crushed by their lack of faith. And what did they do? They resorted back to Idol worship. They gathered all the gold and the resources that they had taken from the "world," (Egypt) and they cast it in the form of their god and they fell down and they worshipped it. What are the modern day idols of the world? Political power? Military might? Economic force? Is that what the world puts its trust in? Is that what they worship? Perhaps, but not me brother. 100% of my trust is in the Lord, maker of Heaven and earth, who holds all the nations of the world in the palm of His hand, to whom all the nations are like a drop in a bucket. My God, and Him alone has all the answers to the worlds problems, all of them. He does not need chariots or horses or tanks or bullets or political systems , in fact He commanded that all the chariots be burned with fire and the horses be hamstrung. What political sense did that make in that day? It was madness, yet His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than ours. He says it, I believe it , and I do not intend to turn to the left nor right (no political pun intended).
So brother, there it is :) I love you as a brother in Christ and it is my prayer that our God blesses you to be a mighty witness for Him. And with that blessing and the power of the Holy Spirit that when you speak you speak with the power to penetrate the hard hearts of men for the cause of Christ.............brother Frank
| 2009/4/20 14:35|
| Re: |
Y'all are thinking too hard about this. Also, I detest the judgementalism I'm reading on this thread. How stupid and petty.
If someone wants to join with like minded people and make their voices heard in a non-violent and legal manner then I say go for it. It isnt wrong, it isnt unbiblical and it is not a sin... except to those who think themselves more spiritual than everyone else.
And if you have a conviction agaisnt participating in such events... then follow your convictions, but stop thinking yourself more spiritual for having said convictions. If you do not have the freedom that others have, then so be it.
But all this back and forth on this topic makes about as much sense as feathers on a bear. According to scripture all y'all are sinning simply because your participating in foolish debates. I do it too... so maybe it's time we put a stop to it. Makes me want to vomit.
| 2009/4/20 14:44|