Monroe, LA - USA
| Re: EXAMPLE - CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT . . . |
Can you show me where one could find any example in the NT where anyone tried in any way to "change government"?
Jesus in no way condemned this widow woman who exercised her privilege to petition the government. He used her as an example of DOING SOMETHING GOOD:
Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
I would think that those who dont believe in peacefully petitioning the government could not in all good conscience hire a lawyer to defend their innocence if they were falsely accused of a crime . . . or if (may it NEVER happen), they are betrayed by a spouse and desire custody of their children.
| 2009/4/17 21:09||Profile|
Monroe, LA - USA
| Re: NOW LET ME STATE MY DEEPEST BELIEFS ON THIS MATTER . . . |
If we are spending more time peacefully petitioning our government than we are aggressively agonizingly petitioning our Heavenly Father, we are actively demonstrating which government we have more faith in.
Personally, I feel so lacking in time spent in prayer before God's throne for the horrible condition of the world that we live in . . . I have very litte time for political activity. I hope that I will not be counted an unwise steward of my time when I give account for my life before God.
| 2009/4/17 21:20||Profile|
| Re: |
I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. It simply does not make sense to me. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but the way I read your post is that you say it is ok for us as Christians to vote, but it is not ok for us to petition the government and give them our opinion on a matter? Outside of the "official" nature of voting, in essence, how are the two any different? Both involve participation in the political arena. Both are means of giving the government one's opinion on things. If you are grieved over whoever is in office now, you can cast your lot for somebody else. How is this different than being grieved over decisions being made by our elected officials, and telling them what your lot is cast for?
| 2009/4/17 21:22||Profile|
| Re: |
HI Jimmy, my logic is very simple. Jesus and the Scriptures specifically teach us about taxes. If you are not following His teachings, you are violating His teachings. I am not sure that I can state it any simpler than that. As for voting, that is another matter and another thread. I have voiced my opinion on that before :-) Your bro :-) Frank
| 2009/4/17 21:40|
| Re: |
Hey Lordoitagain, way too convoluted for me. The Scriptures are simple enough for all to understand. Whether it is a puppet King like Herod, a Caesur like Nero, a Prime Minister like Brown or a President like Obama, they are the ruling authorities. You can make complicated arguments about how democracy works(and I suppose you know that we do not have true Democracy here, we have first past the post and an eletoral college) but it does not change the teachings of Jesus who knew mens greedy hearts and was not in the slightest bit interested in the subject. As I said before, when we stand before God, we will not be talking politics or policies :-) ....Frank
| 2009/4/17 21:44|
| Re: |
God raises and lowers our secular leaders. This is clear. Jesus said pay taxes. This is clear.
The question put to Jesus concerning taxes was not 'should we pay Caesar' it was 'should we pay taxes'. Caesar was just the ruling authority at the time. The issue was taxes, not locale, not one ruler. The Jews didn't want to pay a ruling authority that was not of God, but tithes to them were just fine. Today we pay a ruling authority that is not governed exclusively by God's word in Christ. I see no difference here.
The original tea party protested taxes owed to what we called a MOTHER COUNTRY that thought they owned us (and at the time did). The very fact that we came here to escape other various oppressions is evident that freedom was not inherent. It was not money we owed to ourselves for the general function as a sovereign nation like today. Let's get some perspective here. America was being born just by simple geographical displacement of an oppressed people. Otherwise there would be no reason to leave England to begin with. We are not owned by an English Monarchy any longer.
And unlike then, we have taxation with representation in the form of what we call THE VOTE. Majority is the rule here despite whether or not you agree with the leadership that was elected to office. The fact is that both parties have used federal gov't to produce their own agenda. Both parties have expanded federal government to gain ideological clout for the implemention of their own perspective in terms of what gov't should look like.
I find it highly hypocritical for people who tout and condone STATE RIGHTS to then invoke the federal government as a mechanism to make abortion and gay marriage rights illegal among ALL STATES. If anyone wants STATE RIGHTS to be the sovereign mechanism for the rule of law in separation from federal government then they should not complain if abortion, drugs, prostitution, gun control, and the like are the adoption of many states in the union. That means that those in neighboring states who oppose abortion, drug legalization, prostitution, gambling and the like should not complain if people cross the state border to engage in these activities and bring such things as drugs back. Be careful what you ask for here because many states have Christian and non-christians living there. If we want moral and religious segragation by state then by all means we should do it. But as far as this being the solution to our nation's ills is a bit naive. It's a fleshly solution to a sin problem that only Christ Himself, through A RIGHTEOUS AND PRAYERFUL CHURCH, can influence.
I wonder how many millions or even billions of good hardworking taxpayer dollars have been bilked by the prosperity Gospel mongers. Don't think for one second that a coniving televangelist isn't a type of church tax collector. As we speak TBN is having their multi annual pledge drive that touts a 'special time' to sow a 'special seed'. These are the same people who take advantage of America's tax loophole to keep their profits. Separation of Church and State is just fine with the TBN preachers when it comes to mammon, but not when it comes to morality. They want it both ways and it doesn't take an IQ of 150 or anyone unsaved to figure this out.
As Christians we have to be against abortion, gay marriage, and all immorality that goes against God's word. But this is summed up in Christ Himself, not in the political arena, not in ideological perspective, and not in the subjective research and subsequent conclusion of our Constitution.
If we Christians were doing our Biblical mandate government welfare wouldn't be necessary. If we have a purpose beyond ourselves, BY FAITH, then giving and taxation shouldn't be such a worrisome thing. God knows what He's doing here, this much I know. So to handwring over public policy governed by the ruling majority elected by the majority is not what I lose sleep over.
Again, millions and millions of dollars given by many well meaning Christian have gone to a few greedy preachers who laugh all the way to the bank. There's no trickle down effect here. Based on their own theology, it would be more profitable for televangelists to sow, sow, sow, then sow some more to gain a financial blessing. Instead, the lay people sow and they receive. Then they hoard and misspend good hearted giving. Or they sow a small bit only for their own image as a ruse to make it look like they are helping the cause of others. In this sense they are no different than our government.
A secular government in any country no matter what the philosophy is not held to a biblical mandate. So why are so many outraged by any of this? Yet so many are quick (not necessarily here on this forum) to defend the financial activities of a so called 'non profit' church.
Our own house needs cleansed, judgment begins here. But we're so obsessed with the secular house of gov't that we are baited into thinking that the CONSTITUTION holds more weight than GOD'S OWN WORD.
This is the sad reality among many Christian's today.
| 2009/4/17 21:47|
| Re: |
"Our own house needs cleansed, judgment begins here. But we're so obsessed with the secular house of gov't that we are baited into thinking that the CONSTITUTION holds more weight than GOD'S OWN WORD.
This is the sad reality among many Christian's today."
| 2009/4/17 21:52|
| Re: |
Well, I think this thread has just about run it's course. I think I've said much of what I hoped to say on the topic (though originally, I was just hoping to post my pics from the event, not start a discussion).
Though it has been fruitful discussion I believe, I feel a little saddened that this topic took off much more than a little thread I posted on the resurrection of Jesus Christ a few days prior. I'm not big into politics and don't get too caught up in them. Personally, I absorb most of my time thinking on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and prefer to do things to further the gospel. Because we are "in this world" politics is something we as Christians must deal with. Let us never become more passionate and interested in the world and its workings over that of the workings of God, and the amazing grace that is available to all of us who believe.
| 2009/4/17 21:58||Profile|
| Re: |
"Let us never become more passionate and interested in the world and its workings over that of the workings of God, and the amazing grace that is available to all of us who believe."
Now brother, I can definately say amen to that.....bro Frank
| 2009/4/17 22:03|
| Re: |
Just so you know...
The recent "tea parties" were not a group of Americans voicing an opposition to taxes, but a group of Americans who are opposed to [i]increased[/i] taxes and taxes spent for questionable ideals (like US funding for abortions in foreign lands).
This nation is very different than Caesar's Rome. Rome was an Empire where Caesar sat as the King. The United States has no king. It has a government "[i]of the people, for the people and by the people[/i]" -- a government of CONSENT. If you sift through the writings of the founders of the nation, this "consent" was a very central to the founder's idea of government. There was no longer a "divine right of kings" or a class of nobles. Rather, the regular people could actually serve as governors, senators, representatives, judges and presidents -- elected by peers.
We certainly have a Scriptural mandate to pay our taxes. However, this nation still gives us the opportunity to voice our concern in any issues. The concern of many is that the newly elected government from an ideology that supposedly protects personal liberty is now labeling ministers as potential terrorists for publicly voicing opposition to the new administration's agenda. While we should expect the people of this world to oppose the causes of righteousness (John the Baptist was beheaded, after all, for pointing out Herod's sinful marriage), but we should not expect a nation of consent (of elected fellow citizens in this temporary country) to mock and ridicule those with whom them disagree.
I didn't attend one of the "tea parties." In fact, I had not even HEARD of the tea party until the day they began. The first headline that I read was from CNN and MSNBC reporters actually mocking the rallies. They called it a "hate" rally. One television personality even ignorantly called it a "racist" event. One television reporter even noted all of the "Christians" at the rally and equated them as "far right wing extremists" because of the Bible verses on their posters and shirts.
What a time that we live in! We live in a day when the unrighteous boldly parade their SIN and then point to the righteous as "evil!" In this day and age, Isaiah 5:20 is becoming so real.
We are ripe for a revival.
| 2009/4/18 1:07||Profile|