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Joined: 2008/11/5
Posts: 28

 Re: Out of Wedlock Births

Bro Neil I read your post and I have to admit that as a black woman I had an initial knee jerk reaction when I first saw this post to just say "Okay, here they go again picking on the black unwed mothers". Because I knew without even reading the post (I still have not read it) what it would basically say. Birth rates among blacks are .... % and among Hispanics are ....%. Same old thing. Been there done that got the t-shirt.

But I think I do understand Bro Greg's posting because sadly but true, too many women among the African American/Hispanic community settle for less than the best. And I am not talking about those who do not name the name of Christ, but those who do. However this is not just an African American/Hispanic problem, it is a "we are all sinful people in need of a savior" problem.

In the black community slavery is not the cause, sin is. As it is in every community. Pure and simple. I speak this from experience. I am a great-great-granddaughter of a slave. I was raise up in a godly home were we went to church every Sunday, (and every chance my mom found) yet at the first chance that she got, my baby sister went out and had a baby without being married. Why? Because she said she wanted someone to love her. Not that she didn't have a mother, father, three sisters and three brothers who loved her. That was not good enough and was really only an excuse to live what was really in her heart. My mother, sister and I ended up raising that little boy for most of his life.

That was twelve years ago. Well guess what? Six years later she did it again because she told the "Lord" that she wanted a little girl. She had her. And she is still unmarried.

My husband and I ended up raising her daughter for two years while my sister was in Dallas trying to get her life together. All the while she was professing salvation, going to church and proporting to "hear from the Lord"

Where is the dad? Sight unseen. No child support, no anything.

She didn't do this because of a history of slavery and what slavery did to the black family, but because she choose to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

Children born out of wedlock can have it hard, especially when one of the parents is out of the picture. Children of divorce can have it hard also and in some ways they are in similar situations. Believe me I seen them both in my family.

But, at least those children are alive. I think that is your point. And I concur. But sin is still sin, no matter how you slice it. It reeks.

So do I get upset when people harp on these kind of things? Sure I do. But hey, I harp too.

In the end all the talking in the world won't change a thing. Only a loving Father can do that. Aren't you glad he did? I am.

So the unwed mother, single mothers and fathers, and those who in ignorance aborted their tapestry before it was complete. I will embrace them, love them and plant seeds of Christ in them. And maybe.... just maybe you will meet one of them and be able to pour God's living water upon them.

Because only Father can give the increase. As you said, we are all cracked pots, waiting for Father to put us together.

In case you have fallen by the wayside of life; dreams and visions shattered, You're all broken inside. You don't have to stay in the shape that you're in; the potter wants to put you back together again.

In Christ,

 2009/4/14 10:03Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


Greanlea, thank you for your comments. There is objectivity, warmth, and humble dependency on the grace of God in what you said.


Mike Compton

 2009/4/14 11:06Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida


Dear Greenlea,

Praise Jesus for your Faith and witness. Please stay around and become a regular here. We need your voice in our choir.

white stone


 2009/4/14 12:11Profile

Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


Greetings Greenlea

I very much appreciate what you shared here. Especially this part:However this is not just an African American/Hispanic problem, it is a "we are all sinful people in need of a savior" problem.


Thank you for sharing. I agree completely.

God Bless

 2009/4/14 15:05Profile


Good post Greenlea!

About the article -

It's not that these media statistic folks care about children in single family homes or morality - as we all know, that's not even on their radar. They daily do artificial insemination on single women. I've heard programs on the radio where they praised these women - even making Stars out of some. They just use these statistical reports to encourage abortion and increase racial prejudice - period.

Our anger can get misplaced with these type reports, when it's these 'social engineers' and the 'reasoning' behind these reports that our eyes should be focused on. These are the same people who put out TV programs and movies of teens having sex for how many years and teaching sex ed to elementary school students for over a decade now - exposing young minds to things that they are no way ready for.
The MEDIA is the message - as was the title of one book.
The media has destroyed an entire generation - through music, TV and movies and 'education'.
And now - unsupervised internet even at the Libraries and the mocking of the abstinance message.

Why would they hate homeschooling Christians so much, if they're worried about teen pregnancies?

Look at all the welfare, medicaid, justice system and education costs these homeschooling Christian parents are saving the gov.

Pretty obvious that these statistics are geered toward promoting Planned Parenthood only and definitely not for us, the moral minority.

 2009/4/14 15:39

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida


Your phrasing makes the problem very clear. The Media is just another tool in the bag of tricks of those who are trying to 'shape' the youth of this world. Public Education is another. Public Health Care will make it a triple threat. Genetic engineering is on the drawing board, wait and see.

Our prayers are needed.

white stone


 2009/4/14 16:30Profile

 Dear Sister Lea

I've been praying and mediatating on what to post to you for a spell here now. I'm learning thru the Ministry of the Holy Ghost when to hold my tongue (read keyboard) and when to write. You said:

But, at least those children are alive. I think that is your point. And I concur

That was exactly the onus of my post.

Now as the brother of a bi-racial sister, born out of wedlock, as the result of an adulterous affair my mother had, I thank God and praise Jesus this blessed birth of my loved sister happened PRE "Roe v. Wade", because God love her, I know my mother, and my fear, given the enormous pressure of an interracial relationship in 1964, would have probably led her to abort, a woman, who now teaches public school, and has been for 17 years, and my sister and I both agree that if she changes just ONE child's life per year, she's a heroine. (there might be some here who say that public school is "evil", well, I wont spend bandwidth countering that)

So that was the point of my post, these children ARE ALIVE!!! There is so much sin afloat in this cruel and wicked world, one could spend all the day, "exposing" and speaking out against all the sin that abounds, and I say, people, check your own hearts.

That said, as the Lord leads me, there is an [b]implication[/b]inherent within the publishing of this article, ie the 72% figure, and it's an implication I don't like.

Now, as a young Jewish boy, who was studying at the synagogue with a half-black sister, don't think for an instant that the denomic sin of race hatred is reserved exclusively for white Gentiles...oh no, my baby sister had no fun at synagogue, nor at the Jewish summer day camps we were both forced to attend, where she was the only person of color. I said that to say this:

during a period of my life, when my mother was flirting with the African-American experience in America, she used to take us to "black" churches. I THINK they were either baptist or AME's, but I used to have the grandest time!!! I didnt know Jesus, but I used to love to see these big women, and I mean BIG, get filled with the Holy Spirit and go running up and down the aisles, praising the LORD in KNOWN tongues. (thats for all you anti-Pentecostals on this site) It just blew my 10 year old mind! They didnt do THAT in synagogue, I loved it, coz there was something so genuine and so REAL about their Faith and their love for Jesus! Even as a 10 year old, my spirit could discern this and I buried it up in my heart...and when the pastor spoke, My Lord!!! Praise God, denoms fled that Church. If I would had my way, I would have gone to synagogue on saturday as I did, and that church on Sunday, but I guess my mother tired of her "hobby".

When the Holy Spirit rang my bell in May 2002, I was led to an Assemblies of God church, and a wonderful pastor, who has become my mentor and my best friend.("are you a Pentecostal, neil?"...I'm a Jew who follows Jesus, for those who make idols of labeling folks) At first the temple was mostly white, but Praise God, we got a real rainbow of ethnicities at that humble church, I was praying for that.

am I off topic?, yes and no, but I'm writing as the Lord leads. I was watching the PBS series "Carrier" (my son just got accepted at one the premier military academies, on his way to his dream of attending Annapolis and becoming a Naval Aviator) and they had one episode on faith aboard the USS Nimitiz, and I noticed something very disturbing, they have one service led by a layperson, who termed it a "modern praise and worship" service, which was attended by mostly white sailors, with a smattering of latinos, singing "Here I am to Worship" ( a song I love) but then they later had a "Pentecostal" service and it was 99% black sailors. Now when I was in the Navy, I didnt know Jesus, but if I was aboard the Nimitz, I'd rather be at the pentecostal service. why? because its all black and i'm making a "statement" as some all too earnest white "liberal"? no. Because during that service, I saw followers of Jesus face down on that deck, prone, either worshipping the Risen Lord, or dying to self, or all of the above. There were hands being laid on people, who's faces were wet with tears, Praise God!! Thats my kind of Church, as I have frequently been laid out on my face during service,(in the back between the seats, so as not make undue disruption) frequently been led to tears of joy, repentance, Heavenly burdens on me.

That leads me to write this, when I visit African-American churches today, I notice one thing, the majority of attendee's are women. I don't know what that means in the Economy of God, but it leads me back to my original premise that the foul denomic foundational national sin of slavery might have something to play in it all, because WE as a nation, have NEVER repented corporately of such sin.

Furthermore, I'm not making excuses for the sin of "fornication", or for the young African-American male, but the reality is this, A. young black men are not made to feel valued in this society, and a majority are raised by single mothers. Now, if a young man does NOT have a father in his life, he WILL seek out male role models, and in the inner city, there are only two, the pastor, or the street gang. The street gang holds a lot of allure, money, drugs, a sense of "family", denomic as that "family" may be, it's THERE for them...and once this street gang gets its claws into a young man's heart, his soul, there are only two ways out, death or jail, and this goes right back 200 plus years to when Africans were sold apart, families torn apart, and many times, children (if they were lucky) went with the mother, and a man, stripped of his family, stripped of his pride, his value, his worth, as a child of God, that heart grows dim, and like a generational virus, we are still healing, but we deal with it by jailing these young men. Oh, indeed, some need to be jailed, murderers or rapists, whatever, but how many lanquish in jails for the crime of drug dealing? What happened to the "visit prisoners" part in the Bible? (I'm speaking to myself now)

There are so many sins we leave unspoken, especially the national variety, we'll speak really loud about homosexual marriage, about abortion, amen, but we won't talk about an empire gone mad and killing hundreds of thousands of souls all over the world, post 1947, Vietnam and Iraq come to mind, we won't even speak of the national unrepented sin of slavery and the fact that we had to fight a nasty stinking civil war to rid this nation of that henious crime against God.

Many white southerners today will say, "no, the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was about states rights". Okay, good enough, I'll give you that, but you hear me, the "state's rights" you speak of, were your states percieved "RIGHT" to be people thief's and man stealers, which not only is sin, but is against the Constitution, and no state has the right to go against the Constitution, and those who do, and did, secceeded from the United States of America, that had been bought and paid for by the blood of patriots, hence this rebellion against the US was dealt with, and the slaves were freed, Thank God, but I have never seen any evidence of national repentance to this very day.

I've been studying the lives of abolitionists, not the well known historical figures, deeper, and I can tell you this with all veracity, 99.5% were on fire, Bible believeing followers of Jesus. It was Reverend John Rankin in his book, "Letters on American Slavery" who fired the first salvo in the information war in 1832, which were a collection of loving letters to his brother who had bought a couple slaves, outlining in systematic theology WHY his actions were sinful and a reproach to Christ, and Praise God, his brother repented, gave his slaves freedom and joined with his brother in Ripley Ohio. People convinced Rankin to bind these letters into a book, and from reading that book, "anti-slavery socities" were formed and these formed the basis for the loosely organized "underground railroad". Rev Rankin and his sons, rescued 2,000 slaves and Rev Rankin ahd a $3,000 bounty on his head, but the Rankins were never violent and endured much persecution, much of that coming from other "christians". People remember John Brown, who was violent and a failure to boot, not John Rankin.

My leading has always been this, you have the Assemblies of God, primarily white, and its splinter Pentocostal church, the Church of God in Christ, primarily black. I asked my mentor one time, actually two times, why dont we call all the COGIC pastors in our presbytery, call all the AoG pastors in the same presbytery, and sit down, break bread and forward this suggestion, a COGIC church and an AoG church form a sister relationship and maybe once a month or once every two months, one church will travel to the other and join worship, then repeat it the other way around, and maybe...just maybe, during the summer, find a good campground, and hold a week long tent meeting Holy Spirit Jesus camp, camping out, breaking bread, but the main business would be preaching in the tent and tarrying for the Lord to come down in Fire and Power and Holiness, just waiting on Him, but doing it TOGETHER!

God bless you Lea, a Jewish male and an African-American woman posting together on this forum, never thought I'd see the day. Did I address the sin of fornication? thats the next post, to my sister Ginny.

In Jesus' love, neil

 2009/4/15 13:51

Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3165

 Re: Dear Sister Lea

At first the temple was mostly white, but Praise God, we got a real rainbow of ethnicities at that humble church . . .

. . . [b][i]rainbow[/i][/b] of ethnicities . . . :-)

 2009/4/15 14:32Profile

 Dear sister Ginny

I've been thinking and praying what I want to write as led by God, and again I say, my voice is soft. You wrote:

As the father of several aborted children, you are experiencing intense grief for past sins - sins confessed and repented of, I am sure. To be reminded again of it angers are having a hard time forgiving yourself.

Sister, may God love you as I do, but you are assuming what I feel, and you are wrong.

I am feeling intense grief that those children were KILLED. I'll explain: I've had three major loves in my life, and what you should understand is that those who do not know Messiah, lead what many here would regard as "unregenerate lifestyles", and hence be classified "fornicators". That's the view from safe within the walls of the church.

But my first love, lets call her Laura, we fell in love at 14, she was 13, and Jewish like me, beautiful and smart, we would spend hours talking, such fun. Our love was chaste, we were both innocents. I had made a promise to my dying grandmother that I would never marry any girl, but a Jewish girl. Silly as it sounds, at 14, I wanted to marry her, I think thats why she broke up with me(lol) I dropped out of the prestigious private highschool we both attended at 17, joined the Navy, completed boot camp with high marks, and was rewarded with probably one of the most sensitive jobs in the Navy, besides handling nuclear reactors or nuclear weaponry, but first came back home after boot camp, tanned, lean, muscular, in a dress white uniform, all white, and one of my rich, ultra-rich classmates was holding a party in his families 15 room apt, there were about 100 kids there, this was 1977, and Laura was there, she saw me, and I saw her, and it was like two magnets coming together. I loved her so much, on so many different levels. I would have married her the next morning. We planned a date the next evening, she borrowed her father's Mercedes Benz, and off we went. (He loathed me, "good" Jewish boys didnt join the Navy, and besides my family wasnt wealthy, not what he wanted for his lil girl) and that evening, we were intimate. Was it for the sex? No, not at all, people here might want to think it was all about lust, but we loved each other, dearly.

So, I left for my training, was taught Korean, and intel gathering skills, we wrote 10 page letters back and forth, this woman was a true intellect, I went off to Korea, hundreds of letters between us, and then I was stationed in Washington DC, and she was at Smith College in Massachusetts, and every chance we got, I was in Mass, or she was in DC, and on my 21st birthday we concieved. I knew EXACTLY what I was doing, and she had to also, because we had been having albeit sporatic, unprotected sex for 4 years. But at 2 in the morning, late December, as we lay in her dorm room, I can still see the ice on the her window, and a pair of candles buring, I whispered in her ear, "you're pregnant". "nooo", she whispered back. I shook my head, and said, "trust me, you are now pregnant", and we fell asleep. a few weeks later, she called me, she was pregnant.

Now, I was begging to marry her...way before this, dying to marry this woman, wanting to, nothing mattered to me more, this was my soulmate, my intellectual counterpart, but she said, and kept saying, "no, I'm not ready"...and me being the kind of "liberated" man that I was, I didnt press the point, but there were two things I didnt know, first, her father and mother both thought me beneath their station in life, even though they didnt know I handled material which I could have before the Presidents eyes in ten minutes flat. (her father was one of those left-wingy type lawyers that hated the military...knee jerk hatred, reflexive hatred) and second she was in the opening stages of having an affair with a classmate of ours at another Massachusetts college ten minutes away, I dont know if they were yet active at this point.

When she told me she was pregnant, I was so happy, but I couldnt even breathe because I feared what was next, I asked her very cautiously"what are you going to do?" She said, "You want me to have it?" ("IT"......thats when I started to really get scared) "Yesss".

She said, "I can't do that"....I said, "Baby, lets get married tommorrow".

"I can't do that either".

Trying to stay calm, I asked, "well, what do you want to do?"

"I don't know" Then I got real serious, I said very calm, "please, please, I am BEGGING you, do NOT kill that child". She started crying, and I told her, I would get emergency leave and be up there in 4 hours, and we'd just talk. No, she didnt want that. Over the next few days we talked, and I kept pleading begging, I even called my mother immediately, and asked her to back me up, care wise, and call Laura and let her she was there for her. It didnt matter, she had made up her mind, or in the week it took her to get the courage up to call her parents, they made up her mind for her, ordered her home, abortion time. I knew the precise moment it was all taking place, I went on sick leave that day, and just laid with my back against the wall, shivering, weeping, I could feel his limbs being torn apart, as I knew the exact time of the "appointment", and something died inside me, it was my love for her, at that moment I hated her, deeply and throughly. That was MY child too, and believe me, saints, I would be no absentee father. How dare she kill my child, our child? She should have just taken a gun and put it to my head too at that moment, for the way I felt. Kill me too....good.

I stopped calling, I couldnt, I could never feel the same way about her again. She would make the odd call or two, and then she wanted to come down to DC to see me, and on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial she told me of the affair she was having with our classmate, whose family was very wealthy, much more to her fathers liking. I sat down on those marble steps where my hero, Dr. Martin Luther King spoke to 250,000 people and I wept. She put her arm around me, and I stopped crying, looked up at her, and said, "please....don't", and then went back to mourning it all. After I finished we went thru the charade of having dinner at a Vietnamese resturant in Georgetown, fancy place. I was okay at that time, very subdued, but inside just cratered, and Laura made the mistake of ordering a nice bottle of white wine. She knew all the fine wines, but I dont drink that much, however that evening I did, and as the wine took effect, I spoke my heart, and my heart was dark and coursing. I spoke of a murdered child, I spoke of betrayal, I spoke of phony convienent love, it was ugly, she was in tears, I was in tears...I didnt raise my voice, I just didnt take my eyes off hers. The real steam behind my whole drunken diatribe was that child, repeatedly asking, "How could kill our baby?"

Finally I had enough, enough wine, enough table time with her, signaled to the waiter, threw a hundred on the table, rose, she rose with me, we went outside, I hailed a cab, and asked her what airport she wanted, "Dulles", gave the driver a twenty, opened the door for her, she got in, and I said "see ya". (mind you, she had more credit cards on her, than any of us have, so it wasnt out of line for me to assume she could ticket any flight she wanted) and that was the last time I spoke with her.

The classmate she was having an affair with became her husband, dont know when, they have three children. Her father was disbarred in 1985 for being a crook, and her husband facebooked me, asking me for free tickets to my show as "money was tight", I guess his people didnt leave him a large inheritance, and to date they havent come to see my show. I told him, "that I can't give out free tickets, but I'd love to see you guys".

Do I forgive her? of course. Do I still grieve over that baby. You bet, yes I do, BUT its a Romans 8:28 thing, because on my 35th birthday me and my wife, the most beautiful red-headed South side Irish/Jewish woman I've ever met concieved our only child.My boy. God likes to give me good birthday presents, because two days ago, that boy,all of 13 years old, with his mother in tow, was accepted at a prestigious military academy, scoring 99 percantile on all tests. He wanted to go there, because it is his intention to attend Annapolis and God willing become a Naval Aviator.

Now the only unhappiness about this all, is that his mother divorced me after my salvation, and I miss her, tremendously, but she wasnt walking with God at that time, and we had grown very toxic. She follows Jesus now, but had re-married, a man who I love very much, a man I respect. Since my salvation I have not "dated"....or anything. I miss my wife.

So there it is. I dont feel any "guilt", you get washed in the Blood, and such guilt goes away. I'm wrecked right now, as these are memories were long forgotten, I have not the strength to recount the other two times.

What I say originally stands, I'm just happy those babies are alive, and to those who feel called to denounce sin, fingers a pointing, cheeks quavering at this sin or that sin, or pronounce this one a "true" Christian OR NOT, tread very carefully, you're playing with Fire, the Fire of God, and He doesnt have much patience with hypocrites. (I'm not talking to you Ginny) There is nothing ANY of us can do to be HOLY ENOUGH, despite what various holiness preachers may tell you. God can see right thru ALL of us, right thru the religious pride, the posturing, the posing, the churchly venacular, the religiousity, all of it. Point a finger, you play with Fire, consider the case of Ted Haggard and tremble with fear, fore God will expose all hypocrisy.

All we can do, is to plead the Blood of Christ and throw ourselves on the Mercy of God, anybody tells you otherwise doesnt know the Truth of the Gospel.

God bless ya Ginny I love you and the LORD loves you, neil

 2009/4/15 17:11

Joined: 2008/10/21
Posts: 151

 Re: Dear sister Ginny

What I say originally stands, I'm just happy those babies are alive, and to those who feel called to denounce sin, fingers a pointing, cheeks quavering at this sin or that sin, or pronounce this one a "true" Christian OR NOT, tread very carefully, you're playing with Fire, the Fire of God, and He doesnt have much patience with hypocrites. (I'm not talking to you Ginny) There is nothing ANY of us can do to be HOLY ENOUGH, despite what various holiness preachers may tell you. God can see right thru ALL of us, right thru the religious pride, the posturing, the posing, the churchly venacular, the religiousity, all of it. Point a finger, you play with Fire, consider the case of Ted Haggard and tremble with fear, fore God will expose all hypocrisy.

I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but this has prompted me to ask a question. I am asking this objectively, and have no hidden intentions.

Based on what you are saying in this quote, are you saying that we (as people in human form) are unable to identify any type of sin? This could mean in ourselves or in other people?

I am not putting words into your mouth, I just want to know if this is what you are saying.


Ben Fuehrer

 2009/4/15 19:09Profile

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