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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 John 1:8

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clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

the doctinal error , I most solemny assure, is not on my part . I do not Glory in being right about doctine , rather I am grieved that this damnable , heretical doctrine , of a sinful substance given to us by adams first sin and that this is our nature handed down to us, by adams offence, and that this is the reason why we sin , because our nature's are sinful !!! this is absurd . Many professors of religion have held to this view, and i would rather that the many professors be right, as opposed to being wrong, and misleading , in their assumptions of religion and of our natures and relations in them. Many professors of religion have taken 1 john 1:8 and made it to mean literally , that if, a Christian says he has no sin , He is lying and the love of God is not in Him. they have grabbed this verse and used it to reinforce their assumption of a sinful constitution always in us, in some substance inherited by , or through , adams fall. All the scriptures which speak of sin and the conection of it to the flesh are not implying or saying that we always have sin because we still have a physical body.. Sin comes ONLY THROUGH TEMPTATION , when we give in, and yield to temptation we sin. Sin never comes through our flesh by way of some unavoidable, inherited sin nature our bodies always carry . I am not wrong here and this can be discussed thoroughly and at lenght. Sound reason, and the scriptures will prove this to be so . when the scriptures are taken as a whole . There are two kinds of effects of Sin, one is physical,, and the other is Moral.. the levitical law respected the physical and showed us the hatred [ emnity ] between us and God. this physical law was done away with through the FLESH of JESUS .. Now , I am not saying that the law did not do Good , it did, but it did not make anyone righteous [ perfect ]. the physical always points to the Spiritual .. the law was mankinds schoolmaster pointing us to Christ. Now the new law of Love in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of Sin and death.. This law of sin and death is not a physical substance we have no choice in having. We do not go astray and sin from early in childhood because we have a substance of sin in our flesh, an inherited sin nature. We Sin because the fall of adam brought in a great and damnable world of twisted thoughts , that came from Temptation, eve was tempted to know the knowledge of good and evil ..and went her own way and sought out something God had forbidden . Then of coarse, Temptation came to adam through eve and He went the God forbidden way also. Sin is a transgression of the law ,it is never an inherited substantive nature . Again the reason i post on here is because so much that seems to be believed and implied, by some of you ,is that you think that sin is in our natures and ,therefore, we are always predisposed to sin , or have sin ,in some form , wether accidentally , unknowingly , or intentionally, and never be completely free from it till we get rid of these earthly bodies that carry sin. this is the lie , and the unreasonable , unscriptural assumption , that needs to be seen for what it is and should not be held as truth by Christians any longer.. God bless you richly !! Now may the God of peace sanctify you wholly , and that your spirits , souls, and bodies, be preserved blameless unto His appearing .. ... and FAITHFUL IS HE WHO WILL DO IT !! 1 thess.5:21-24. Clint. one last thing here , the atonement is a covering , that potects us from what is outside of us, which is all the evils and temptations and occasions of unlawful transgression of the law.


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/3/11 18:35Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hi Clint,

I have a few questions I was wondering if you could answer for me if you get a chance.

1) What did Christ accomplish on the cross - what actually happened?

2) When someone places their faith in Christ, what happens? Is Christ's righteousness imputed to them so that they are now viewed as righteous in God's sight?

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/3/11 18:42Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

Great questions , taylor . I believe that you have studied scripture. I can tell this from the few posts of yours , i have read .. Christ satisfied the justice of God by dying for us, Christ the innocent, offered Himself, to bear the God inflicted penalty of Sin, which is death,an innocent life, for the guilty sinful race of mankind . So christ , in satisfying Gods claim and penalty of sin, can secure to Himself, through His great Love , a people that would gladly except his sacrifice and follow Him and His example and die to themselves daily and become alive to God, [thus be born again ] , through the same power that raised Christ from the dead . now from my knowledge that i now have, i know not the meaning of imputed, but the two becoming one , i do know , and that this new birth from above , is a marraige . so all that my new creation Spirit of Christ [ my husband ]has , my soul can have . What ever my soul takes in will pervade through my whole being and out of my body. . I am the Righteousness of God , as much as my soul [ the wife ] so desires and yields to the Spirit of Christ . If this is Christs way of imputing His righteousness in me , then the answer is yes to Christs righteousness being imputed to all who are born again from above. now walking this righteousness out comes as we learn of the leading of the Husband and our soul,[ the wife ] following everywhere He, the husband leads. Now our part in righteousness is the Following [ always abiding ] His part is the ever leading and keeping us , in Himself, and into Gods very presence . Hope you know what i am trying to say here, God bless you taylor . Get to go attend to my wife now .. have a blessed evening ,, Clint


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Clint Demoret

 2009/3/11 19:41Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hi Clint,

So, when were you actually counted as righteous before God? When you believed?

Also, were you counted as righteous before God because Christ made it possible for you to obey God? In summary, are we justified by following in the example of Christ and living a holy life?

With care in Christ,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/3/11 20:27Profile
Candy_3
Member



Joined: 2008/4/26
Posts: 7
Wisconsin

 Re:

Clintstone,

If we do not have a sinful nature, why did Christ die?

You mentioned through Adam and Eve came temptation. This is false and I'll quickly explain. Temptation came before Adam and Eve, through Satan. Eve wasn't the tempter, Satan was. So if Eve isn't the tempter, then temptation did not come through her. She was tempted and sinned, therefore sin came through her, as with Adam.

Temptation in and of itself is no bad thing. It is a test of purity.

Sin is a bad thing, however, as it makes us impure and removes us from the holiness the Lord requires for us to be present in His sight, since He is holy.

In Him,
Candy

 2009/3/11 22:04Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

i have re-read romans chapter 4 this evening . the words imputed, impute , reckon , and counted , are all the same word in the original greek . This being so really makes it so easy to read this chapter and to interchange these 3 words all the different ways possible to do so. I first looked up impute and found itmeaning to be reckoned and counted , so , i thought that these words might just all be the same greek word , and sure enough they are ..we are counted righteous when we believe Christ , we are justified because Christ took our place and died for us. Now , about the being able part , I do not see from scripture where Grace gives us ability to obey God, i believe the doctrine of gracious ability to be false doctrine , also. I know this is a big one too . there are two big words when we believe on , and in Christ, and they are " I CAN " ... paul said " I CAN do all things through Christ which strenghtens me " grace shows us what we can do , grace is the recieving of sight of what we could of been doing all along had we not been blind . praying for grace is the same as praying for vision of Christ and His offices that we individually can walk in , For the supply, and building up of His body .Now if we are unable to obey God before grace comes , why are we guilty before Grace comes to us ? Also grace , may Have stricken paul blind for three days so He could see just how blind he was,too the vision of Christ , even though he was a profound biblical scholar,. The workings of God upon us and in us are so high and wonderful , seems that us and Him move together at the same time. I tell mos tpeople ,I know that ,," Be thou my vision " is one of my favorite songs. We deem ourselves encapable of obeying God wholly, and Christ comes and says yes you can. paul , i believe lived Christ perfectly , to live, for him, was Christ. Paul told those in his day to follow him , his example , because his example would lead them to God Himself and into His peace.. I love to tell the story of unseen things above , of Jesus and His Glory , of Jesus and His love... I'll praise Him forevermore for giving me sight, just to see Him... and the I can ... of doing all i do Through Him .


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Clint Demoret

 2009/3/11 22:09Profile
thomasm
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Joined: 2007/8/17
Posts: 116
Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote From Clintstone
"rather I am grieved that this damnable , heretical doctrine , of a sinful substance given to us by adams first sin and that this is our nature handed down to us, by adams offence, and that this is the reason why we sin , because our nature's are sinful !!! this is absurd ."
--------------------------------------------------
I believe that we were born with a "sinful nature or a fallen nature or spiritual blindness" Whatever you like to call it. eph2:3niv
rom8:3-4niv
Where I differ from others is I believe the sinful nature, was crucified with Christ, rendering it powerless, the problem is Satan likes to lie kill and destroy, and goes to great length, to lie to us about our old nature, and keep us conscience of sin rather than our place in Christ. rom6:6niv rom7:4-5niv rom7:6niv heb12:1-2niv heb12:2-4niv

John G. Lake, wigglesworth, Andrew Murray, and many others, had a similar line of thinking.


LOVE IN CHRIST tom


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Tom weighill

 2009/3/12 1:04Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

what i believe that i said and meant to say is that eve was tempted first, and we all know by who, then eve was who the temptation came to adam by .


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Clint Demoret

 2009/3/12 17:14Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

thank you tom for your posts i am i big admirer of lake , wigglesworth ,andrew murray. I have read much of their writtings , murraays book " the holiest of all" and " prayer " are excellent . I highly recommend all of us learning john G. lakes and wigglesworth secret to having the power of God in such high demonstration , and that showed them the Mysteries hidden in Christ before the foundation of the world.. Thier secret is that they PRAYED in toungues a lot ,and they understood this gift, and function of God in it, too them . I am becoming more aware of what beliefs are held by people , and yet this is not my mainsource of input. I have had this building in me for twenty years and i keep coming back to it by Gods leading, . Sin is not handed to us by nature. yes we have an old man that died , and was crucified with Christ , and in abiding in Christ we learn by His spirit how the mortification of our flesh takes place. I love what you say of satan going to great lenghts to lie kill and destroy. Jesus had the same flesh and bone body we have , did he not? He had all the appetites, passions, desires,and propensities, which are constitutional and entirely involuntary . Christ possessed them , or he was not a man, nor , in any proper sence a human being. scripture says that Jesus was in all points temted as we are and never sinned . He was able to be tempted as wea are because he took on this FLESH the same exact one we have before we are born again!! .. Oh i am so glad that my sin is is all my fault and that it is all on me and not on some inherited nature that i got from something resident inside me that i had no say in . Sin came to me by way of temptation, and my appetites and passions and desires and propensities , are not sinful, though they are the occasions of sin. Theu are an temptation to the will to seek their unlawful indulgence. When thes lusts or appetites are spoken of as the " passions of sin, " or as , " sinful lusts or passions" it is not because they are sinful in themselves, but because they are the occasions of sin. our Flesh , meaning its passions , appetites , propensities, desires are the occassions of sin . A moral agent is responsible for his emotions, desires, etc. , so far as they are under the direct or indirect control of his will , and no further. He is always responsible for the manner in which he gratifies them. If he indulges them in accordance with the law of God, he does right . If he makes their gratification his end, he sins. It should be remembered , that the physical depravity of our race has much to do with our moral depravity. a diseased physical system renders the appetites , passions, tempers and propensities more clamorous and despotic in their demands, and of course constantly urging to selfishness , confirms and strenghtens it. It should be remembered that physical depravity has no moral character in and of itself. But yet it is a sourse of fierce temptation to selfishness. the Human sensibility is , manifestly, deeply physically depraved [crooked,bent ] and as sin consists in Commiting the Will to the Gratification of the sensibility, itphysical depravity will mightily strengthen moral depravity. Moral depravity [ crookedness] is then universaly owing to temptation. That is , the soul is tempted to self indulgence , and yields to the temptation , and this yielding , and not the temptation , is sin or moral depravity . This is the way Adam and eve became morally depraved . They were tempted, even by an undepraved appetite, to prohibited indulgence and were overcome . This is the way that every man comes to moral depravity [ SIN ] not by birth not by nature not through posterity of adam. a child can be born unhealthy [ sick ], physically depraved ,but this is not Sin , nor is it being born to sin, or , in sin .. I believe that if i sat and talked this over with , murray , lake and wigglesworth , they would agree with this view .. In eph.2:3 cannot , consistently with natural justice ,be understood to mean , that we are exspossed to the wrath of God on account of our nature .It is a monstrous and blasphemous dogma , that a Holy God is angry with any creature for possessing a nature with which he is sent into being without his knowledge or consent . The bible everywhere represents God as being angry with men for their wicked deeds , and not for their nature. It is common to speak of the first state man finds himself to be in as his natural state, as opposed to a changed state . thus we speak of sinners as in a natural state, as opposed to a regenerate state, and a state of grace . By this we do not mean that they have a nature sinful in itself . Total moral depravity is the state that follows , and results from their first birth , and is in this sense natural , and in thisense alone , can it be truely said that they are " by nature children of wrath . " Against the use that is made of this text , and all this class of texts , may be arrayed the whole scope of scripture , that represents man as to blame, and to be judged and punished only for His deeds. The subject matter of discourse in these texts is such as to demand that we should understand then as NOT implying , or asserting , that sin is an essential part of our nature. I have quoted much from Finneys theology , He exsplains it well and He was one of americas greatest evangelists and teachers . This Is my view and I do not see it changing soon , I have studied it much throughout my walk with God . My sin is my responsibility and i can live without it completely, Because Christ did , so can I because of His death, burial and ressurection . Having the mind of Christ , or the same mind as Christ , means simply to Love God and obey Him as Christ did . Through Christ ALL people can do this , and we are commanded , By God , to do so . God commands this of us because this secures the most good for Him and for us and for all the universe, and all the rest of creation is waiting and groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God , which are those who choose to do His command ..


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Clint Demoret

 2009/3/12 19:44Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Romans 5:12




4. In Christ.
The Sanctification of the Believer;
his Deliverance from Sin and the Law;
Children and Heirs.
Chapter 5:12-8.

CHAPTER 5:12-21

1. Sin and Death Through the First Adam. 12-14.
2. In Adam by Nature; in Christ Through Grace. 15-21.
So far the subject of this Epistle has been our sins and how God has dealt with them in the Cross of Christ. The guilt and penalty of the sins of the believer are forever gone. With this section the question of sin itself is taken up and we learn how the justified believer is also sanctified in Christ and as such delivered from the dominion of sin and from the law. Furthermore we learn it also includes that believers are children and heirs of God. To distinguish between sins and sin is important. Sin is that evil principle in us, as fallen creatures, and sins are the fruits which spring from the evil root in us. Sin, the old nature, and how God deals with it in virtue of the redemption of Jesus Christ, is now, first of all, revealed. What we were in Adam and what we are through grace in Christ, how as identified with Christ we may be delivered from the power of indwelling sin, are truths unknown to many believers. Without this knowledge a true Christian experience, such which a believer should constantly enjoy, is impossible. One of the chief reasons why true believers are carried about with divers and strange doctrines, is the ignorance of these great facts of our redemption in Christ as unfolded in this part of Romans. How many others are constantly striving and struggling to lead a spiritual life and fail in it because they know not the great principles of sanctification and deliverance in Christ.

Verses 12-14.--"Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." By one man, the first Adam, sin entered into the world (not sins, but sin). And death followed, which is physical death. "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return," and this death has passed upon the race because of sin. The margin of the authorized version contains a statement which is responsible for a very unscriptural teaching. The margin states "in whom all have sinned"; upon this it has been taught that the guilt of Adam has been imputed to all. This is not correct. We are not responsible for the sin of Adam nor are we held responsible by God for a sinful nature; we are responsible for the outworking of that nature, that is for our own sins. The wicked dead, those whose sins were not taken away, because they believed not, will not be judged for having had a sinful nature, but solely according to their works (Re 20:12). Death comes upon us on account of our sins, as it is stated in this verse "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned.

"For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law; nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him to come." This looks difficult, but it is simple after all. The law was given by Moses; from Adam to Moses there was no law, men were left to conscience, by which they knew good and evil. But death reigned nevertheless from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Adam had a commandment which he transgressed, inasmuch as there was no law till Moses, the generations could not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression. Sin is lawlessness and not as the faulty translation of 1Jo 3:4 states, "sin is the transgression of the law." However, sin becomes transgression when there is a law. As there was no law from Adam to Moses, sin was therefore not imputed as transgression. But as they all sinned, death reigned and there is also judgment afterwards for them. The last sentence of verse 14 "who is the figure of Him that was to come" is the important statement which is fully developed in the verses which follow and upon which the whole argument rests.

Verses 15-21.--The first Adam is the type of the last, Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. The same comparison is also found in 1Co 15 "For as all in Adam die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive" (verse 22,). This passage has often been used by those who teach the ultimate, universal salvation of the whole race. It has nothing whatever to do with salvation from the penalty of sin, but it applies to the resurrection of the bodies of the redeemed. Here in Romans the contrast is of a different nature. Adam and Christ are viewed as two heads, having each his offspring to whom they communicate something. The first Adam bestows upon his offspring the results of his sin; Christ, the last Adam,* bestows upon those who belong to Him, by personal faith in Him, the blessed consequences of His great work. (Christ is never called the second Adam, but the last Adam, as there will not be another after Him.) A sinful nature and physical death is what we have as the children of the first Adam. In Christ the believer receives a sinless nature, eternal life and glory. In this sense Adam is the figure of Him to come.

The first sentence of verses 15 and 16 is best put in the form of a question. This helps much in understanding this deep portion of the Epistle. "But shall not the free gift be as the offence?" By the offence of Adam the many died, his offspring has been affected by his Offence. In like manner the grace of God and the gift of Grace, which is by the other Adam, Jesus Christ abounds also to the many. The question asked must therefore be answered in the affirmative. This and the following verses have also been used to teach that there is universal salvation. But it does not mean that. The condition "faith in Christ" must not be lost sight of. We are all in the first Adam by the natural birth; identification with the second Man is only possible by the new birth and that takes Place when a sinner believes on Christ and in His finished work. Those who do not believe are in Adam and are dead in trespasses and sins. "And shall not as by one that has sinned be the gift? For the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification" (verse 16). The sins committed are here in view. Our sin brought judgment. The free gift of justification, on account of Christ's atoning sacrifice, is blessedly sufficient to deliver from the guilt of many offences. "For if by the offence of one death reigned by the one; much more shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and Of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one, Jesus Christ" (verse 17). The Previous verse spoke of the guilt of sins, which rests upon all those who are in Adam and this guilt is met in Christ by justification. In verse 17 death which reigns in the first man is met by reign of life in Jesus Christ. Those who believe on Him have life now and are delivered from the reign of death. When He comes, the bodies of His Saints will be raised in incorruption and we who remain shall be changed in a moment and be caught up into His Presence without dying. Verse 18 in the Authorized version is poorly translated and misleading. "So then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men to justification of life." This blessed contrast between Adam and Christ is made again in verse 19. "For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many shall be constituted righteous." Here it is the contrast between Adam's disobedience and Christ's obedience. And the obedience of Christ which constitutes all who believe on Him righteous, is not His obedient life, but His obedience in the death of the cross. "But law came in in order that the offence might abound; but where sin abounded grace overabounded, in order that, even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Here for the first time a reason is given why God gave the law. The Epistle to the Galatians will bring the subject of Law and Grace more fully to our attention. Law came in that the offence might abound; it has constituted man a transgressor and in this sense the offence abounds. But grace overabounds. It deals with the transgressions and reigns through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Wonderful and preciously deep contrast! In Adam sin. condemnation and death. In Christ righteousness, justification and eternal life; yea much more, eternal glory. In Adam we have his constitution; in Christ we possess through grace His life and glory.

Praise God, In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2009/3/12 20:20Profile





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