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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 John 1:8

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 Re:



Dear Christinyou:


How about a new approach? Instead of beating this thing to death, respond to my post about the Old Covenant versus New Covenant.

It ends up being a shouting match, with you shouting above yourself, and continuously quoting scripture, that all of us agree with--we just do not agree with your conclusion that you never have to pray to God to forgive your sins after you are saved.

[b]I can agree in rerards to all of the Scripture that you continue to post, and my position remains unchanged, because we both agree on the fact that the sinner, once he is saved, has the down payment, the Holy Spirit, that lives within him. The saved person will not end up in hell, even if he sins. His sin has been paid for.[/b]

What you fail to see is that in order to have a close personal walk and relationship with Jesus Christ, it is imperative that we confess our sin to him, at the time we are made aware of what we have done, by thought or deed.

My understanding above is in total agreement with the requirements of the Old Covenant sacrifices, as found in Leviticus, and in total agreement with the New Covenant found in the New Testament.

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

clintstone wrote:
the letter kills , But the Spirit gives Life. the time when Jesus did not keep the law , in those religious spirited guys thought that by law Jesus could not heal someone on the sabbath, because that was work . another time they thought that an adulterous woman should be stoned, because that was a levitacle law, Jesus did not keep that one. the woman was not stoned. I am so sure i can find more but i amnot here to argue this easy point, it is triffling. the Spirit of the law of God is Love and Jesus always kept and did that perfectly.

 2009/3/9 18:44
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

I know that sin has a nature. I know the difference between the nature of sin , which is the RESULTS of Sin and not the SIN ITSELF. the bible clearly distiguishes this . I klnow that the Life is ONLY had by yielding to the Holy SPIRIT ,, this yielding to the HOLY SPIRIT by praying in tounges and by groanings that He Gives to those who yield to this earnest of our inheritance will Be cleaned from all philthiness of Flesh,, from all philthiness of soul and from all philthiness of spirit. This Cleansing is a result of being led by the spirit of God , the changing of our bodies comes latter but that is not meaning that our bodies are sinful and have sin in them by nature till then. our bodies may have the corupt RESULTS of SIN but have sin itself in them .


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2009/3/9 18:50Profile









 Re:



To Clintstone:

The sad truth of the matter is that you will not respond to anything that anyone posts. How can we have any type of dialogue and come to resolution on anything? It is impossible, just like being asked to go to a liberal college and defend creation. The "students and the teachers" will shout you down! That is what is happening here. You continue with your mantra, with your broken record, that never ends, screaming at the top of your lungs, posting the same scripture over and over and over, and do not allow anyone to dialogue with you.


I wish you well, brother,

Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

clintstone wrote:
I know that sin has a nature. I know the difference between the nature of sin , which is the RESULTS of Sin and not the SIN ITSELF. the bible clearly distiguishes this . I klnow that the Life is ONLY had by yielding to the Holy SPIRIT ,, this yielding to the HOLY SPIRIT by praying in tounges and by groanings that He Gives to those who yield to this earnest of our inheritance will Be cleaned from all philthiness of Flesh,, from all philthiness of soul and from all philthiness of spirit. This Cleansing is a result of being led by the spirit of God , the changing of our bodies comes latter but that is not meaning that our bodies are sinful and have sin in them by nature till then. our bodies may have the corupt RESULTS of SIN but have sin itself in them .

 2009/3/9 19:07
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

The question of whether we have to confess our sins anymore is not what this is about. 1 John 2:1-2 is enough to show this answer. We are probably going to sin after we get saved and we are supposed to confess it when we do. The question is whether when we confess our sins we are cleansed of them completely or if sins always abide in us because we always are sinning.

What an OBVIOUS answer! How can sin always be in us and at the same time be gone? It is not possible. If sin were always in us, then we would never need to confess more than one time that we are sinful and that is it. If Christ hasn't delivered us from our sins then how can we confess sins as they arise? For they are always there! In the case some are describing of an ever sinful heart, the sins are always there. NOT POSSIBLE! If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves refers to our state prior to confession. Which is why it is followed by the statement of 1 John 1:9. When John writes 1 John 1:10 he is simply adding to his point in vs 8 that we have all sinned and what it means to say such a thing.

The determining word in this argument is the word BUT. We have sin, BUT if we confess our sins we are cleansed. In other words, we have sin, UNTIL we confess our sins and are cleansed. How can a man be cleansed of a sin he is currently committing? What happened to repentance? I cannot steal with one hand and hold the hand of Christ with another. Nobody can serve two masters. Either you are in sin, or you are not. If you are in sin and are judged, what will the verdict be? Christ did not die so you could sin and not be punished. Christ died so you could not be punished for the sin you previously committed, and that you would not sin anymore. And IF you sin, ... 1 John 2:1-2.

I proclaim at this moment in my life I have no sin in me. I have a pure conscience. Acts 24:16 And my heart does not condemn me 1 John 3:21,22. I am prepared for the return of Christ in my heart and I am dead to the world. Nothing in my life at this moment is between me and God. There is no sin. Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No. Am I in any way transgressing the commandment of God in my life? No. I am sinless! And [b]IF[/b] I sin, I will know what to do. 1 John 2:1-2.

You call me a hypocrite, but are these not the very words of the apostle Paul?

This teaching would seem like the law and not grace to some. But if that is so, then you are confused about what grace and the law really are. Romans 6:14


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2009/3/9 19:33Profile









 Re:


To Christinyou, MattChenier,Clintstone, & Thomasm (the four that are actually one):

The book of 1st John is written to Christian believers by John. It is not written to the lost.

The same holds true for all of the epistles in the New Testament- they are written to the Church, and to people who have already accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. People who are already saved from their sin. People who are already on their way to heaven.

The Pauline Epistles:
Epistles are letters, so it follows that these are the letters written by Paul to various churches and individuals. [b]In these letters Paul provides instruction and advice that Christians today can follow[/b]. These are the Pauline Epistles:


Pauline Epistles to the Churches:
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians

Pauline Epistles to Individuals:
1Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

The General Epistles:
These epistles were letters written to a variety of people and churches by several different authors. They are like the Pauline Epistles in that they provided instruction to those people, all [b] saved people,and they continue to offer instruction to Christians today. [/b]These are the books in the category of General Epistles:

Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation

[b]These epistles, sent to the believing Church, as well as believing Christians, are given to us for instruction. They are not written to those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.[/b]

They are clear in teaching us that even though we are saved, when we sin we have an advocate, Christ Jesus, who sits at the right hand of the father [b] making intercession for us [/b]Romans 8:34, as well as the Holy Spirit, who also makes intercession for us when we fall (Romans 8:26-27). Who is up there, that stands against us? Who is it that sees our sin nature, that sees us cut off that driver, that sees us loose patience with our children, that sees us lusting after the new car that a neighbor just brought home? It is Satan, the accuser of the Brethren. (Rev 12:10)

[b]Why on earth would THEY (Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit) need to make intercession for the body of Christ if it was true that once we were saved, and on our way to heaven (which we are- once we believe that Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior), that we never sin again by thought or deed? The sin that makes us just as guilty as completing the act of fornication or adultery or murder.[/b] But, we are not to worry, Jesus Christ & the Holy Ghost are continually making intercession for us, even though Satan, the accuser of the Brethren is there, demanding the application of the law.

1 John 1:1-10 was written to believers (not to the lost), and tells us how to live:
1 John 1

1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In conclusion, I feel that we all MUST spend time in the Old Testament to fully understand the meaning of sin, and sacrificial system created by God, that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

Without this understanding, we will continue to post into eternity, without resolving anything.

Sincereley,

Walter


Quote:

MattChenier wrote:
The question of whether we have to confess our sins anymore is not what this is about. 1 John 2:1-2 is enough to show this answer. We are probably going to sin after we get saved and we are supposed to confess it when we do. The question is whether when we confess our sins we are cleansed of them completely or if sins always abide in us because we always are sinning.

DELETED

 2009/3/9 22:20
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

matt, well said brother. I know by the Holy Ghost that i am called to preach Christ crucified and raised from the dead . And this was done that we might choose to abide IN Him Forever. My disagreement in any of these posts in this discussion forum is with the lack of distinction between Physical depravity { Physical crookedness } and Moral depravity { self- interestedness, self- seeking, moral crookedness ] when scriptures are refered to as saying that SIN and physical depravity [ physical crookedness ] are the same thing , are a misinterpretation of Scripture, and threby are a misrepresentation of the Good news [ gospel ]. Sin is not physical crookedness, ever. Sin happens ALWAYS by TEMPTATION . This makes me think of bartemeus , the blind man Jesus healed , the people asked Jesus who's fault it was that He was born blind his or his parents. Jesus said to them that it was neither his ,or his parents fault. I think those who asked Jesus this question mistook physical depravity for moral depravity . those who asked this Surely thought Some sin of His or his parents caused him to be blind. This was not the case and Thank God Jesus knew it . I am so Glad that the Holy Spirit Knows How to deliver those That will follow Him into a place of knowing how to Forgive sin and to also be able to say " take up your bed and Walk , such as i have give I unto thee." The First thing JESUS CLEANSES by the Holy GHost is the Flesh , second is the soul [ conscience ] thirdly He cleanses us in our spirits . Some on this thred have assumed and added to my thoughts here . I am at fault for not being thurough and clear with my thoughts . I know that they light comes more and more as I look to Jesus. I know when He is breaking me ,and i come to the place, by the Holy Ghost, that i have a hatred for sin , equal to Gods hatred of it,then , that is the time that God delivers me from it and i Go on into God {Love} deeper than i was before. This sanctification We have brings Oneness with Jesus and the Father as far as God reveals Himself to us By the Holy Ghost. I wish that all could get 2 cor. 5:1-5 ,, romans 8; 21-27 , Jude 20 , . The gift of praying in the Holy Ghost and building ourselves up in our most Holy Commitment [ faith ]. This is the key to understanding the how , the who, the when, the where , and the why , of the ways of LOVE [ God ] to ourselves and also to the rest of mankind. Again , thank you for standing with me , matt , and proclaiming the great salvation love has wrought for us, and that surely sets us free to always lalk in life and godliness and that more aboundantly than we can ask or think, all we have to do is be a disciplined follower of Christ Jesus ..


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Clint Demoret

 2009/3/9 22:26Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2149


 Re: Sin remains

MattChenier,clintstone and any other "sinless" claimers,

You both speak with one voice when these words were posted, "I proclaim at this moment in my life I have no sin in me...There is no sin. Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No. Am I in any way transgressing the commandment of God in my life? No. I am sinless! And IF I sin, I will know what to do."

There have been many who've been patiently admonishing and exhorting you here on this forum.

A sharp rebuke is unlikely to prevail with you either.

You have been shown how prone to sin that men in flesh and blood bodies are, but you refuse counsel from the Word of God.

But even as Jesus said to the pharisees in John 9:41 "Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see; therefore, your sin remains."

Presumptuous sin,sins of ignorance,pride,arrogance,thoughts,attitudes,motives and the like have been brought to your attention.Yet you insist on being self-condemned.
Tit 3:10,11 A sectarian man, after a first and second admonition be rejecting,having known that he hath been subverted who is such, and doth sin, being self-condemned.

YOU ARE DECEIVED!!!

I will make you aware of yet another sin which holds you tight in its grip.

"Every deviation from truth is a sin. It is not simply a sin for me to do a wrong act, but it is a sin for me to believe a wrong doctrine."

You admit when you say, "Am I perfect in all spiritual understanding? No. Do I have perfect faith in all things? No.", that you do not know whether the doctrine you believe is correct on every point.To believe a wrong doctrine is sin.

If we do not know which doctrines we may be holding to are erroneous we cannot confess nor repent of them. This adds to the other sins mentioned already above of which you are guilty.

I will end this post with the words of C.H. Spurgeon on the subject of believing a wrong doctrine being sin. He expounds upon this well I believe.

"In the first place, every deviation from truth is a sin. It is not simply a sin for me to do a wrong act, but it is a sin for me to believe a wrong doctrine. Lately our ministers have absolved us all from obeying God in our judgments; they have told us point blank, many of them, in their drawing-rooms, and some of them in the pulpit, that we shall never be asked in the day of judgment what we believed. We have been told that for our acts we shall be responsible, but for our faith we shall be irresponsible, or something very much like it; they have told us plainly, that the God who made us, although he has authority over our hands, our feet, our eyes and our lips, hath but little authority over our judgments; they have told us, that if we make ever such blunders in divinity, they are no sins, so long as we can live right lives. But is that true?

No; the whole man is bound to serve God; and if God gives me a judgment, I am bound to employ that judgment in his service; and if that judgment receive an untruth, it has received stolen goods, and I have sinned as much as if I put forth my hand to take my neighbour's goods. There may be degrees in the sin. If it be a sin of ignorance, it is nevertheless a sin; but it is not so heinous as a sin of negligence, which I fear it is with many. I tell you, beloved, if, for instance, baptism be not by immersion, I commit a sin every time I practice it; and if it be, my brother commits a sin who does not practise it. If Election be true, I am committing a sin if I do not believe it; and if Final Perseverance be true, I am committing a sin before Almighty God, if I do not receive it; and if it be not true, then I sin in embracing what is not scriptural. Error in doctrine is as much a sin as error in practice.

In everything we are bound to serve our God with all our might, exercising those powers of judging and believing which he has given unto us; and I warn you, Christians, not to think it is a little thing to hold faith with a feeble hand: it is a sin every time you do aught which makes you waver in the faith of Jesus Christ. Remember, too, that error in doctrine is not only a sin, but a sin which has a great tendency to increase. When a man once in his life believes a wrong thing, it is marvellous how quickly he believes another wrong thing. Once open the door to a false doctrine—Satan says it is but a little one—ay, but he only puts the little one in like the small end of the wedge, and he means to drive in a larger one; and he will say it is only a little more, and a little more, and a little more. The most damnable heretics who ever perverted the faith of God erred by littles and littles; those who have gone the widest from truth have only gone so by degrees. Whence came the Church of Rome, that mass of abominations? Why, from gradual departures. It did not become abominable at first; it was not the "mother of harlots" all at once; but it first did deck itself in some ornaments, then in others, and by-and-bye it went on to commit its fornications with the kings of the earth. It fell by little and little, and in the same way it separated itself from the truth. For centuries it was a Church of Christ, and it is difficult to say, looking at history, when was the exact point in which it ceased to be numbered with Christian Churches. Take care, Christians, if you commit one error, you cannot tell how many more you will commit.

"Hold fast the form of sound words," because error in doctrine almost inevitably leads to error in practice. When a man believes wrongly, he will soon act wrongly. Faith has a great influence on our conduct. As a man's faith, so is he. If you begin to imbibe erroneous doctrines, they soon have an effect on your practice. Keep fast to the bulwarks of your fathers' faith. If you do not, the enemy will make sad havoc with you. "Hold fast the form of sound words which was delivered unto you."

And now, for the good of the Church itself, I want you all to "hold fast the form of sound words." Would you wish to see the Church prosperous? Would you wish to see it peaceful? Then "hold fast the form of sound words." What is the cause of divisions, schisms, quarrels, and bickerings amongst us? It is not the fault of the truth; it is the fault of the errors. There would have been peace in the Church, entire and perpetual peace, if there had been purity—entire and perpetual purity—in the Church."


 2009/3/10 0:17Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

Can water be removed from a fish and the fish not be removed from the water? I have confessed my sins and they are removed from me. Not only this, but I am removed from them. God bless.

The argument that the epistle is written to Christians does not prove that he isn't talking about our state before we are saved. That is a not sufficient grounds to build such a strong conclusion. I back my stand on Romans chapter 6 and many other scriptures including 1 John 1:9. Read Romans 6 and tell me a person saved by grace cannot be sinless. Read 1 John chapters 2-5 and tell me the same thing. Such a small piece of "evidence" that you destroy so much truth over.


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Matt Chenier

 2009/3/10 1:36Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

The "sin nature" does still abide in our flesh. This is shown by Paul's statements in Corinthians when he says he serves God with his mind but with his flesh he serves Sin. So is he a servant of both? Impossible. Nobody can serve two master. Rather, he chooses who he serves. Before he was crucified with Christ he served the flesh willing or not as is seen in his prior statements about doing what he doesn't want to do. He is speaking in this case as though he were not saved and is bound to serve the flesh. However, when he is baptized into Christ, he is set free from the power of his own flesh, in which he dwells, and is alive to God.

So the "sin nature" of Paul's flesh still abides, but it has no power over him because ... he is crucified with Christ, neverthless he lives, yet not him, but Christ lives in him and the life which he now lives [i]in the flesh[/i] he lives by the faith of the Son of God.

Sin nature still there, Sin in the heart not there. Sinful flesh, sinless man. Baptism into Christ. True doctrine.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2009/3/10 2:22Profile
thomasm
Member



Joined: 2007/8/17
Posts: 116
Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

 Re: 1 John 1:8

1John 2:26niv "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."
The purpose for the letter writen to the saints, is that false brethen were tring to lead them astay. The same is true for the letter to the Galations. Paul was warning about starting with the Spirit, and then relying on self efforts, by obeying the Law to finish the work.
In first John, John was warning about the false teaching of lawlessness, saying that you are saved yet living in darkness, and saying that you are not sinning because grace covers all, therefore you have no need for repentance.

There is a message very similar to this one being preached today, it even goes to the point of saying all are saved, because Jesus died for all sin, but it's lacking faith. Faith brings the substance of what Jesus did into reality.

1 John 1:6 niv "If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."

John is refuting this doctrine, with a warning that if we live this way, we don't understand the truth.

1John 1:8 niv "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

I beleive He is talking about the same thing as verse six, claiming to be in the light, saying I'm saved and sin free, yet walking in darkness.

The cure is Jesus, when you see the blood stained hands, feet, and side, and realise that he bore it all, you can not help falling in Love with Him, and turning from ungodliness to Our Risen Lord, who has Grace and Mercy for all who turn to Him.

Love in CHRIST
tom


_________________
Tom weighill

 2009/3/10 3:00Profile





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