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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : False views concerning the church going through the great tribulation!

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stephent
Member



Joined: 2008/12/29
Posts: 27
Boston, Ma.

 Re: AD 70

Looks like I don't have to worry about The Great Tribulation then.

 2009/1/20 13:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Looks like I don't have to worry about The Great Tribulation then.

Yes your right, you needn't worry about the so called "Great Tribulation", it's a past event. However, we will always have tribulation and sometimes it may be great.


 2009/1/20 15:43
stephent
Member



Joined: 2008/12/29
Posts: 27
Boston, Ma.

 Re: AD 70

I've heard that it is a past event before. I'm unaware of the Doctinal view it goes by

 2009/1/20 15:51Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: PURPOSE OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION

stephent,

On the first page last post, I posted some links to Zac Poonen's Revelation series and David Pawson's as well. I would hope you would give them a listen.

I do not feel qualified to answer your question and since no one has, I will attempt. (And you could be setting me up for an argument but I won't argue with you!!) Savannah did answer you but from what I read she believes the tribulation has already happened. I don't agree but I [b]cannot[/b] say she is wrong and I will not! Because everyone uses Scripture to prove their point and each's Scripture is valid. As I said in another thread, [i]"the truth of one Scripture cannot and does NOT rule out the truth of another Scripture. And it's in this where the whole counsel of God lies."[/i] What are we to do? To work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and study the Scripture for ourselves.

Do I know for sure that we are all going through the Great Tribulation? No, I do not but my belief and study of the Scriptures prove that whatever the Lord calls the Church to go through, He will keep us if we keep our eyes on Him and not look to the waves.

This thread was just about gone and I do not mean to aggravate those who disagree with me but [b]he did ask[/b] and so I'm going to convey what "I" believe. I'm not stating anyone else is wrong nor am I trying to resurrect it; this is just what I believe.

The major reason I believe we go through the tribulation is to finally prove how deceitful the heart of man truly is because (as found in Rev 20), the first resurrection occurs and after the thousand year reign satan will be loosed and gather his army.

Where does his army come from? There has only been the first resurrection of those who overcame, I believe that Christ rules and reigns with everyone still on the earth and of course, they will submit to Christ's rule. Satan will gather his army from these because even though they submitted, they did not have a change of heart. I believe that these to will be those who played at church, thought they were Christians but they were not planted in fertile ground but shallow ground or rocky ground. And when the great deceiver returns, they will flock to him and form his army.

Here is the clincher... what has helped me understand this and to change my life is that I believe only the overcoming Christians go in the first resurrection. Carnal christians and those who did not overcome and the unbelievers will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.

Quote:
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


To me, if every person who names the name of Christ gets to go in the 1st resurrection, why do the books and the book of life need to be brought out in the 2nd? If they are all resurrected unto death, then there is no point in bringing out any books.

Hebrew 11.35 [i]Women received their dead raised to life again: [b]and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[/b][/i]

Aside from believing the church is going through the tribulation, to me that is truly MORE UNIMPORTANT than attaining to the 1st resurrection. Since I believe this way, does that automatically mean I think I'm going to be first? No, it does NOT. I am doing my best to live my life more holy, more prayfully, more lovingly than I ever have before to be an overcomer of the fruits of the flesh. I want to gather the fruit of the Spirit!! [edit: I forgot one of the more important aspects, what gives us the right to rule and reign for a thousand years if we cannot rule and reign over our own bodies or temptations or situations? This is why I feel only overcomers will be in the 1st resurrection.]

These are just the beliefs that I have gathered listening to others and reading the Scripture for myself.

God bless brother,


_________________
Lisa

 2009/1/20 16:11Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Quote:

Lysa wrote:

Here is the clincher... what has helped me understand this and to change my life is that I believe only the overcoming Christians go in the first resurrection. Carnal christians and those who did not overcome and the unbelievers will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection.
Quote:
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


To me, if every person who names the name of Christ gets to go in the 1st resurrection, why do the books and the book of life need to be brought out in the 2nd? If they are all resurrected unto death, then there is no point in bringing out any books.




Dear Lysa,

This is a very good point and I also agree.

Here are two scriptures that I believe shows that the overcomers will take part in the first resurrection first.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Blessings to you!

 2009/1/20 16:27Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

rbanks,

At least we found a point of agreement, brother!! [huge grin]

God bless you!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/1/20 17:19Profile
Earendel
Member



Joined: 2009/3/17
Posts: 308
Central Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” John 13:8

There is a very good reason why the Church will not only go through the Great Tribulation, but MUST go through it.

I'm not sure if I posted this here on this forum or not...if I have I'm sorry.

...anyway let's consider Rev 12:7-10
[i] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, [b]for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down[/b].[/i]

Why is it important to the Church, that the accuser of the brethren, who accuses us before our God day and night to be cast out?

Why consider Rev 12:7-10 ?

It's not only important that the accuser of the brethren be cast out of heaven, it is critical for the Bride that this happens.

...because it why the Bride goes through the Great Tribulation in the first place, just to get that point.

...and here's why:

A little background truth to understand first, before I get to what led me to this conclusion.


Please consider 1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


...But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14

…but how do desires get corrupted?

It starts early in life before one becomes transformed into the image of Christ, before one is born again by the Spirit of God.


I believe the origin of temptation comes from satan/demons (began at Garden of Eden). I also believe that they can only tempt through the veil of our flesh by warring with the mind.


What is the sinful nature?


These satans/demons absolutely know the will of God, and before a person becomes a believer, they draw people to sin against the will of God starting early in life...through the flesh by warring with the mind of the mind of the individual.


They war against all believers this way - through the veil of the flesh that we are housed in. These demons start their work early in a person's life, before they come to Christ and try and form a person into their own image...and this is their war with and against God.


Therefore it is written to us who are to heirs of salvation:


Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,(consider Hebrews 12:4) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13



We also must be aware/mindful of where and what these demons/satans will tempt us (target our minds), so that you may be able to fight the good fight. They primarily target and draw a person to do these:


Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 James 4:7


Further it is written, that we are to be on the look out for this:


Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8



Here is a critical point to make:

If the satan and the fallen ones/demons were bound (cast out of heaven as per Rev 12:7-10) and removed from influencing us in our earthly lives, would there be any temptation to sin? – I would say probably not...NO TEMPTER = NO SIN ...but the mind still has to be renewed after Christ nonetheless.


Further:

I have always believed that satan/demons need to get permission from God first before he can tempt or even harass a saint to sin, or hinder spiritual growth (Consider the story of Job, how that satan had to get permission first, and he did this by accusing Job before God - Job 1:6-12 )...satan does this to us, the heirs of salvation, by accusing us constantly day and night before God.

Critical point:

So what happens when satan can no longer accuse us day and night before God?

...so if he can no longer accuse us day and night before God, and doesn't get permission to tempt us to sin, or any other kind of spiritual hindrance aimed at us, what do you think will happen on the earth when the work of the Holy Spirit in us is unfettered from satanic hinderance in our lives?

It will be the time where the Bride will finally be able to make herself ready, even as it is written about in Revelation 19:7

No wonder it is written when satan is cast out by Michael:

[i]Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down[/i] Rev 12:10

This is surely coming, and is before us, and why I believe that a "Great Revival" is coming to the earth during the "Great Tribulation"

- Ephesians 6:12 will cease to be for the church…because satan has been cast out of heaven by Michael.

No accuser standing before God day and night accusing us before God means no permission to tempt a saint to sin, or to spiritually fight against or harass a saint, which means there will be a global revival on the earth unfettered from any satanic hindrances!!!

[i]"Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come"[/i]

There will be no more wrestling in the spirit with satan and his demons in high places…their day will finally, finally be at an end!

What this means to the Bride of the Lamb, is she will finally be able to get herself ready without any spiritual hindrance, without any temptation to sin, without any accuser standing before God - she will get her wedding garments ready and be holy, and without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, she will have righteous works - even as it is written.

But since satan can no longer tempt and accuse, because he is thrown down, he persecutes the Bride…and her saints and prophets are sent to martyrdom. But the saints at this time will not fear this...because of the strength of the Holy Spirit in them.

…the Lord is with the saints in their hour of trial, and the strength of the Holy Spirit sustains them, and fills them with a supernatural calm and comfort and love from God.


These saints overcome satan and the antichrist by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.

Nazi style holocausts will return globally, as Christians are summarily put to their deaths, even as it is written, just as the Jews were during WWII. It is all that satan has left.

During this time of unprecedented revival of the Bride of the Lamb, and during a time of persecution and murder of Christian saints, and in the midst of all the global chaos that will be going on during the Great Tribulation, there will be a an unprecedented move of the Spirit of God, ...such as has not been seen to this day...So powerful will be this move of the Holy Spirit - for God shall pour out of His Holy Spirit to strengthen and purify the Bride of the Lamb, that she may be holy and pure - without spot or blemish, her gown will be white....many will turn to the Lord during this time in this global revival, and will do so without any accuser accusing them before God day and night!


This is why I believe that the church will go through the refiners fire of the Great Tribulation.



_________________
David

 2009/4/2 17:37Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

quote;
"Why is it important to the Church, that the accuser of the brethren, who accuses us before our God day and night to be cast out?

Why consider Rev 12:7-10 ?

It's not only important that the accuser of the brethren be cast out of heaven, it is critical for the Bride that this happens.

...because it why the Bride goes through the Great Tribulation in the first place, just to get that point."


This is compelling to the case for pretrib rapture.
The bride is in heaven for the 7 yr tribulation.

Rev 6;
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Note the dead in Christ,killed for their testimony are in heaven during the tribulation period. Not in the graves of 1 thes.
"for the dead in Christ shall rise first...."
The rapture has already taken place.

rev 19;
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Note the armies originate from heaven.

Satan is thrown down and out of the way during the trib. period ,and the saints ,the bride, are in heaven.

Remember Jesus said;"But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

The marriage supper is what Jesus referred to,and it takes place in heaven.

This makes a posttrib rapture impossible,and the theory of the church being on earth during the tribulation period also impossible

 2009/4/6 0:41Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Just whose Church is it? We are already being disciplined as son's, why would we go through the tribulation so Christ can present to Himself His Bride without spot or wrinkle. How do we learn obedience? Not by the tribulation, but by the things we suffer NOW. We are to glory in our suffering Now, not in a future tribulation that is meant for those that are not in Christ. That is why there will be tribulation saints. There last chance is not to take the mark of the beast in this time of tribulation and are beheaded for there belief that has come because of the great tribulation, that Jesus Christ is real and that He is the Son of God.

How can Christ present to Himself a perfect bride, when they are in the tribulation that has never been upon this earth before. Only a multitude that believe the two witnesses and keep their belief in Jesus Christ will be saved in the tribulation.

Ephesians 5:25-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

If a husband puts his wife through tribulation on this earth, he is not obeying God.

So would Christ be not obeying the Word if He puts His Bride through the tribulation.

Jesus is NOW preparing His Body the Church, His Bride for His catching away of His Bride, just as it is said in scripture, the Bride Groom coming as a thief in the night to get His Bride from her fathers home (earthly) and be taken to His Father's House (heavenly).

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are we with the Lord NOW? Where are we already seated? Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Why would Jesus then put His Church through a great tribulation, all that is necessary is His Shout and we will hear it in this dispensation:

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

This is the dispensation; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working in us mightily, not the workings of a tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/4/6 12:01Profile









 Re:

I firmly believe He returns WITH His Bride at the end of the Tribulation... just as scripture says. Therefore, the Bride (Church) has to be with Him before He returns.

The Tribulation is God's wrath on sinful man. He does not, nor ever has, included His people in His wrath when He brought it upon those who are not His people. (He has brought judgement on His people, but for different reasons)

It's not a coincidence that scripture says "As it was in the days of Noah...". God spared Noah from His wrath. Noah and his family were the ONLY righteous people on the face of the earth. He hid them safely inside the boat... BEFORE it started to rain, and they were spared from His wrath.

Krispy

 2009/4/6 12:56





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