| Poster | Thread | int3grity
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| | Re: Charles Spurgeon Rightly Said: | | The difference between the sovereignty of God and fatalism is the difference between God and atheism. - Charles Spurgeon
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|  2009/1/15 3:33 | Profile | scotty81
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| | Re: | | Quote:
by jimdied2sin on 2009/1/14 3:23:31
I would like to note the comment made around the 1 hour and 6 minute mark of the recording. It is stated that that a "line has to be drawn" and that they (their teenagers specifically in context) should not have any fellowship or communication with Calvinists, regardless if they are true brethren or not (Paul Washer specifically named and included).
This is so grieving... and is not of God. Though it is the perogative of the eldership of charity to state such things to their young people I wonder why you would promote this carnal dividing of the body of Christ under the guise of "rightly dividing the word of truth".
Greg, something is terribly wrong with this?
In Christ - Jim (a non-calvinist)
yeah.
whoever came up and spoke afterwards basically nulified the sermon(not that I agreed with it anyway). They did precisely what they accused the calvinists of being rigidly dogmatic, as if their way is the only way basically.
telling you church congregation not to mix with calvinist believers because of something as hard to understand as pre-destination is not something of God.
and it's often these lone churches that have such a rigid "we are the only church that preaches the truth and everyone else is wrong" mentality end up weird fringe "christian" sects with strange beliefs.
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| | 2009/1/15 6:28 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Brother Taylor wrote:
Quote:
B makes perfect sense if you cast aside the notion of the Lord proving unbelievers before giving them to Christ, and embrace the Biblical description of salvation, which is God opening the eyes of the blind, and giving new hearts to the wicked out of his free grace.
Your words reminded me of this section of Scripture....
Job 33:14 For God may speak in one way, or in another, [Yet man] does not perceive it.
Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, When deep sleep falls upon men, While slumbering on their beds,
Job 33:16 Then He opens the ears of men, And seals their instruction.
Job 33:17 In order to turn man [from his] deed, And conceal pride from man,
Job 33:18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit, And his life from perishing by the sword.
Job 33:19 "[Man] is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with strong [pain] in many of his bones,
Job 33:20 So that his life abhors bread, And his soul succulent food.
Job 33:21 His flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones stick out [which once] were not seen.
Job 33:22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit, And his life to the executioners.
Job 33:23 "If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness,
Job 33:24 Then He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom';
Job 33:25 His flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth.
Job 33:26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness.
Job 33:27 Then he looks at men and says, 'I have sinned, and perverted [what was] right, And it did not profit me.'
Job 33:28 He will redeem his [fn] soul from going down to the Pit, And his life shall see the light.
Job 33:29 "Behold, God works all these [things], Twice, [in fact], three [times] with a man,
Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.
..............................................
In this section of Scripture we learn of how God dispenses His grace, and then what God requires of man, and then finally for those who repent...they are "enlightened with the light of life."
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2009/1/15 12:43 | Profile |
| | Re: | | To tidy up my previous post...
Here is the quote from watchmen nee I was refering to.
Quote:
Yet, the disputes causing many denominations and the divisions causing many sects are advanced in the name of "bearing testimony for the truth"! The soulish Christian often exaggerates differences, creating a disparity of opinions, resulting in divisions in the church of God.
Jude testified of the same thing: "These are those who make divisions, soulish, having no spirit" (v. 19). This word refers to unregenerated people. However, the fact that soulish men cause separations is seen among believers also. The characteristic of a soulish believer is that he is often the instigator of separations and rivalry. We are not saying that everyone has to believe the same thing. But the distinction between a spiritual believer and a soulish one is that while the former realizes his differences with others, he will not separate himself from other children of God just because of these differences. But with the latter, a little incompatibility will cause him to separate himself and to reject others.
I have found this equally true from some in both main theological "camps". For example, I had a young, prideful, "Calvinist" I fellowshipped with that was very contentious and caused me to turn farther away from the truths of Gods sovereign election. Then I had another good missionary brother that simply gave me the complete works of Jonathon Edwards. I read the sermon "The Justice of God in the Damnation of Sinners" and a few others preached during the revival and was actually embarrassed by some of the absurdities I had held to for so long. The Lord used these sermons, given by someone I know, trust, and look up to in the Lord (based on Christian conduct, not mere theological reasons) to completely open my eyes to obvious truths about His sovereign reign.
On the other hand, even though I am not a "Calvinist", I have had a brother who constantly bombarded me because I believed in man being born with a fallen nature. This was to close to the five points for my dear brother so he started accusing me of all the rhetoric that over zealous and divisive "Armenian" brothers throw at the "Calvinists". He eventually stopped coming around because I wouldn't jump all the way into his camp.
What I mean to say is that this goes on BOTH ways, I could even pull up quotes from the recent SI threads. A good theological discussion (orderly and in brotherly love) on Gods sovereign rule is so rare, it is a real shame. If any man speak let him do so as an oracle of God, not in the flesh or out of defense of a systematic theology.
-Jim |
| | 2009/1/15 14:30 | | HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179
| | Re: | | Hi Taylor,
Quote:
Remember, sister, "all of our works he has done for us" (Isaiah 26:12). If we ever repent, it is God's grace. If we ever believe, it is God's grace. "For it has been granted to you not only to believe..." (Phil 1:29)
As I was passing the grain truck, I realized that it was turning into me. I had three choices, go for the ditch, hit the truck, or try to get past him before he hit me. I chose to try to get past him, so I accelerated.
Just when I thought I had made it around him, I felt a "bump" and I cursed, as I knew that things were about to get out of control.
The next thing I remember is hanging upside down in the cab of my vehicle and sliding backwards at a great speed, with Kansas dirt flying all around me. There was the sound of metal on gravel very close to my ear and I had time to imagine my flesh being ground between the metal and the gravel. It was then that I cried out in terror "O God help me!"
When everything stopped, I remember thinking, "maybe everything is o.k." - but when I opened my eyes, there, right in front of my face, was my wrist bent at kinds of odd angles.
I can not help but think that if I had turned on the "bump," I would not have had to go through the "slide" - and I don't even want to think about what would have happened if I had cursed, rather than prayed, on the slide.
I was moving, and the day before the crash I had "flipped off" the place that I was leaving. This is not something that I typically do - but I had planned it as a retaliation for all of the persecution that I had suffered there. It felt wrong when I did it - but I just dismissed the feeling as I knew nothing of repenting at that time in my life.
This is the hand that was broken before my face. I essentially had no other injuries after going end over end three or four times, and then sideways at least once. My car (which I loved) and all my precious stuff (which I didn't trust the movers with) was a different matter.
Now clearly, it was God's grace that brought me into this situation, as it has led me to where I am now, but all along the way I was making decisions that dictated what would happen next. As a result of my wrist being broken, and being able to tie it back to my sin, I became aware that the Lord wanted my obedience - and that is what I set about to do - be obedient.
Now one could say that He made me obedient at that point - but I disagree. I could have chosen to curse Him as the result of the accident, but instead it caused me embrace Him more because here, for once in my life, was perfect justice.
Now granted the Lord, being omniscient and omnipresent, knew how I would react in all of these things and lined things up accordingly. However, I still could have chosen to rebel - but I chose Him over my things, and my self. There are many more things that happened before I came to Christ but it was an ever increasing path of obedience.
At the time of the accident, I knew nothing of Jesus - the whole ""Jesus thing" (as I called it back then) made absolutely no sense to me at all. But I knew that there was a God and I knew that I wanted more of Him.
I do not know how all of this fits into the Armenian or Calvinist way of thinking, but I have not found anything in scripture to contradict it - even after reviewing the bible verses you quoted, and praying over the matter.
Here is a quote that I ran into as I was looking up the word obedience:
"Voluntary obedience alone can be acceptable to God."
Also in reviewing the Bible verses you quoted:
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath [u]learned[/u] of the Father, cometh unto me.
Strong's G3129 - manthanō
1) to learn, be apprised
--- a) to increase one's knowledge, to be increased in knowledge
--- b) to hear, be informed
--- c) to learn by use and practice
------ 1) to be in the habit of, accustomed to
One must be obedient in order to learn, and it appears to me that this verse is saying that first we hear, then we learn (of the Father), and then we come (to Christ). |
| | 2009/1/15 15:04 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I have something common with your testimony [heartsong] though your accident sounds a little worse. As I lay on the side of the freeway service drive crying out "oh God, if I die please dont send me to hell" He whispered in my ear I chasten and rebuke those whom I love. I had been living my days playing games with His mercy, dispising His love and sinning away my days of grace. It was there though that I could see His sovereign hand upon me. He chased me, tricked me, trapped me, boxed me in until I had no place left to turn but Him. I wish I could say that I had made choices (which are bound by a first cause anyways) to follow Him and obey Him, but I was bound by sin, I was a slave to it, sold under it, and taken captive whole heartedly to it. Yet like the dead bones that Ezekial prophesied to that received the breathe of life in the desert, so the Holy Spirit blew through my heart and brought me life until like Peter I could only say "Where else will I turn to Lord".
How does the wind blow? So the Holy Spirit has as many ways of working to draw us.
-Jim
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| | 2009/1/15 18:06 | | int3grity
Member
Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 76
| | Re: | |
It is frustrating that attacks, misunderstandings and deliberate misrepresentations of the doctrines of grace are continually leveled against those who are convinced Scripture teaches them. Some people say, "Calvinism divides Churches". I disagree. I think people who have a superficial understanding of Calvinism and then spread false notions and misrepresentations about what it teaches to other Christians, thereby causing suspicion and fear of an "enemy" thayt doesn't exist- that is what divides Churches.
If you are not able to give a defence of historic Calvinism, which entails compatibilism, as well as a distinction between GOD's will of decree and HIS will of desire, then you have no right to sumarily pigeon-hole and condemn those who hold to these precios truths.
We should be able to defend a position we disagree with before we attack it. Then we know we understand the position we are attacking. This does not apply to overtly unorthodox vies but to those which are widely held among genuine brothers and sisters within the body of CHRIST.
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| | 2009/1/15 18:37 | Profile | Eli_Barnabas
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Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah
| | Re: | | If anyone is interested in listening, I was humbled to preached a message a few months ago that came from deep in my heart about this topic of election. It's of Romans 9:14-29: just straight talk, no nonsense, no hype, just a burden about this often misunderstood issue. I believe it will be helpful, and so I post it.
[url=http://www.olivetdiscourse.com/audio/Eli%20Brayley%20-%20The%20Potter%27s%20Power%20Over%20the%20Clay.mp3]The Potter's Power Over the Clay[/url]
May God bless.
Your servant,
-Eli
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| | 2009/1/15 18:54 | Profile |
| | Re: | | I think John MacArthur said once about election and freewill..."they are both right!" |
| | 2009/1/15 19:45 | | tjservant
Member
Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
Eli_Barnabas wrote:
If anyone is interested in listening, I was humbled to preached a message a few months ago that came from deep in my heart about this topic of election. It's of Romans 9:14-29: just straight talk, no nonsense, no hype, just a burden about this often misunderstood issue. I believe it will be helpful, and so I post it.
[url=http://www.olivetdiscourse.com/audio/Eli%20Brayley%20-%20The%20Potter%27s%20Power%20Over%20the%20Clay.mp3]The Potter's Power Over the Clay[/url]
May God bless.
Your servant,
-Eli
Thank you brother
May the truth of election as taught throughout the Bible be proclaimed!
May I have permission to make copies and distribute this sermon?
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| | 2009/1/15 20:11 | Profile |
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