| Poster | Thread | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Mars Hill | | Slight difference between 'Mars Hill Church' and 'Mars Hill Bible Church.' Which has lead to a lot of confusion.
http://www.marshillchurch.org/
Mark Driscoll is reformed in his doctrine, holds to the orthodox teachings of the bible -his close relationship with John Piper should be a source of comfort for many people on this forum. He preaches reformed theology and doesn't hold punches when it comes to sin. He has also told Rob Bell to repent.
http://www.marshill.org/
Rob Bell is at the forefront of the reformed movement. He denies the virgin birth of Jesus, he denies the deity of Jesus, he is openly supportive of homosexuality within the church. He has adopted many new-age teachings on spirituality and practices from eastern mysticism. When I say 'stay away from this guy' I say it very emphatically. Bad news!
Contemplative prayer is something that many people have recently resurrected, but doesn't have its roots in historic Christianity, instead it has its roots in Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. Contemplative prayer first made inroads into Christianity through the monastic movement. The Desert Fathers, influenced by 'holy men' from other religions coming into the Eastern Roman Empire through the silk road were first exposed to this type of prayer and began to teach it to their disciples.
As someone who works primarily with people from a Buddhist and Animistic background, I am more than aware of what has been imported to Christianity through the back door. The way that the people at IHOP, Mars Hill Bible Church and Eugene Peterson, Richard Foster etc. are trying to teach people how to pray is Neo-Catholic, they are taking a form that was rejected by our Protestant forefathers and hoisting it back into the modern church -I say we need to be discerning and reject it as heresy.
_________________
Ian Smith
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|  2009/1/14 10:19 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | crsschk,
Quote:
Quote: You say they are of another spirit but somewhat of note I would like to say that this is a ministry that both Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz have been a friend of since its beginnings even til their deaths to a somewhat substantial level. And so in this I mention possibly your own prophets. This is not even to mention the vast fruit that is being produced in the lives of saints.
That is at best a bit misleading. Incidents are not precedents and I think you are stretching the credulity of their involvement. It is not the larger of the points by any means, but I will go on.
First, I said "somewhat".
Second, I believe these to be more then incidents.
Art Katz:
From my understanding through research. Mike Bickle was a conservative minister who didn't really even believe in prophecy or tongues. He had recently met Bob Jones and was testing him as to his authenticity as a prophet. Art visited a meeting and was talking to Bob in the back. Art later told Mike that Bob was a true major prophet because he had told him his dream and interpreted it. They went on to have a all night meeting with the 3 of them in which they talked of deep things and wept in the presence of the Lord. Art continued to speak at IHOP from time to time he and Mike held a very similar eschatology and even before Art's death he came to speak in KC and the message was not a damning message but in fact had grown endeared to many. This is largely derived from the Encountering Jesus series on the prophetic history of IHOP. Some of his writings are main textbooks for the seminary in KC "Apostolic Foundations".
Leonard Ravenhill:
He would come and preach at the prayer meetings from its very outstart. The prayer meetings have actually been happening for over 20 years. There are tapes of Leonard and Mike praying for revival together. Mike and the so called KC prophets were tied in with John Wimber and the Vineyard. Keith Green who ministered with Leonard was also involved with the Vineyard and his wife lives in KC and is involved with IHOP and spoke this weekend even. Leonard became friends with John and put on an extended conference at the main Vineyard in Anaheim. Leonard seemed to really like the people and you can hear some of those sermons on SI. If you watch the old Revival Conference q&a you will hear Leonard speaking of Paul Cain and quoting his prophecies specifically about the billion being saved. Some of his writings are main text books for the seminary in KC "Why does revival tarry?"
So, in conclusion I believe these are more then just incidents and are actually quite substantial.
Quote:
Quote: Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)
Quote: I hope He is. You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.
On the contrary, is it not really more your assumption and also a duplicity that you might think this is so .. to imagine evil of a brother, guess at his motivation from a simple comment?
I said "might". I also said "careful" which was not to say do not do but more cautionary which is always a good thing. I will add though as I overlook this again that I may have been wrong in even saying might or thinking possibly. I probably did make a mistake here in my analysis and if so apologize to Mahoney in this specific circumstance.
Quote:
The truth of the matter is that that is a very accurate statement. These 'new' things are postulated almost daily and are so vague, so indiscriminate, so care-less-ly stated that they mean nothing. There are two responses I would forward; Are they evident? And if so, where is the evidence? This prophetic business as it has turned into has multitudes hanging on these people's words and far too often without any testing whatsoever. Not only the test of scripture but moreover just the test of, dare I say it, common sense. What I do see as evident is a certain 'likability' of these men that gives them a pass, clouds their judgments and far too often will use other avenues as support. Much of this is what you are doing here. To be honest, I am somewhat unbiased towards most of this - I see those aforementioned 'other avenues' as worthy, as all well and good, but not at the expense of those concerns that others have mentioned and shared. I know you want staunch, precise-examples but I also see where that is where you come in with a non-stop defense and refuting. There are links elsewhere, have you taken them into account and tried to look at them without your bias? I think the reluctance of getting into all of this is due to those very factors ...
It may be for some but the specific topic is about accusation against IHOP. If you tie IHOP in with others that is false generalizing.
The bible says that God will pour out his spirit in the last days therefore the last days generation will be anointed. I think also that we often do not expect enough. For example Philip had 7 daughters who were all prophets. When was the last time we have seen this mainstream and genuine? I hope and trust that this will happen again.
I do agree with you that there is much error going on and not enough testing. I also believe in contrast that some people have not faith nor encounter and revelation.
As for me personally I do not have any false motives or premises like the likability of men and so forth. It is actually the opposite I am from a more conservative background and have gone against all that natural stuff that you talk about.
My reason for talking about Leonard and Art was to respond to the accusations of "being of another spirit". If one says that such and such is of another spirit and then takes the spirit of others who take the spirit of the aforementioned then that is inconsistent. I think that the testimony of godly men is a legitimate avenue as a testimony though not complete as scripture but still helpful.
You earlier said that I was falsely charging others with false intentions. You are now doing that to me. I do not hold to my position based on the likability of men and there is no solid reason to think that I do. I do not have a non stop defense and refuting. I am open to the truth and only respond and correct where it is needful. If I found something to be right I wouldnt deny it. I have studied these things without reluctance and actually my bias has from the start been against IHOP. So I find this to be offensive and unfounded meaning this is a wrong and hurtful testimony and I do not believe you have basis for thinking and saying such things.
Quote:
All of that leads to my main point;
Quote: Sorry about making so many posts about this topic I guess but I have just been coming upon these resources progressively. So here is an audio message ...
Quote: I know about google and have studied much on the topic. Even in that I am open to more comments that I have possibly not considered
My comment to you and by your own admission, is that you are far too taken up with all of this. Too many posts. Too ready to come to the defense. Too emotionally attached to a lone ministry. David, it's evident. A consideration ... Sometimes the only way to get some perspective and hear the concerns of your own Brethren is to detach yourself from what is 'so up in your ears' at any given moment. Go away from it for a season, turn your thoughts elsewhere, be challenged on a different line altogether - These things can sway us even subtly, they begin to color our thinking, give us a certain slant and bent, we get all bound up in them. I hope you can trust I am speaking from a great deal of experience. This very forum would prove it out.
I did not say that I was too taken up in this. I was speaking specifically to the person in which I was responding about Israel. I was saying that I had made multiple responses on the topic of Israel and the reason for doing so was because I was coming upon the resources progressively since I had prior not really looked for apologetic articles on Israel since I have largely not needed them. I also said "I guess" what I meant by that was that I guess which means in my specific terminology not really. My mindset was sorry for making so many posts because I did not want to overhaul the person with resources but I explained why. So, this was not in regards to IHOP in general. I have studied diligently in the matter because of its importance but I am not too far erroneously.
I don't think I have made too many posts. I have mainly been responding to peoples comments that I feel to be harmful and incorrect.
I think that I am an open minded and reasonable person and takes things with sincerity and humility.
I am not emotionally attached to a lone ministry.
You say it is evident but on what basis because I have made some posts about it and responded to hurtful and false claims and respect the teaching that comes forth.
I have often been detached from it. Let me say more completely I don't think you quite understand the situation. I come from a conservative background. I attended an internship and actually left it half way through because I was not comfortable with many charismatic and lofty claims and my bias was against such things. I have been separated from IHOP for exteneded periods of times a few times. I study widely and am not under a great deal of influence. And even if I were I have a growth and resiliance in the Lord and the scriptures that anchors me.
I trust that you do have experience. I also have experience. In this case I would possibly say that I have more first hand experience.
In conclusion, I do not believe I have said anything wrong. I am not by any means doing any of the list of things that you are guessing that I do. And I think you do not have half of the story. I am confident that the statements that many have made have been way off base and very unreasonable and that I have spoken soundly in correcting such allegations. I could go on as I already have but I think you get the point. I am also not writing with a bad attitude just to let you know since there are cyber medium limitations. If I have said or have some error let me know and I am open to it the rebuke of a righteous man is like oil to my head. I am not pumped up or over zealous or so on but am just trying to write plainly and literally. Also you posts about IHOP in generalization with others cannot stand. Mike for instance will say that there is much error in the prophetic movement recently he said that most words he hear he thinks to himself these are lies or that person is crazy or his spirit feels sick. This is in love and truth with right motive so I would hope that you would see it for what it is and not lock my thread ban me from the forum for such things.
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| | 2009/1/14 14:33 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: Mars Hill | | Ian,
Quote:
Slight difference between 'Mars Hill Church' and 'Mars Hill Bible Church.' Which has lead to a lot of confusion.
Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Contemplative prayer is something that many people have recently resurrected, but doesn't have its roots in historic Christianity, instead it has its roots in Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism. Contemplative prayer first made inroads into Christianity through the monastic movement. The Desert Fathers, influenced by 'holy men' from other religions coming into the Eastern Roman Empire through the silk road were first exposed to this type of prayer and began to teach it to their disciples. As someone who works primarily with people from a Buddhist and Animistic background, I am more than aware of what has been imported to Christianity through the back door. The way that the people at IHOP, Mars Hill Bible Church and Eugene Peterson, Richard Foster etc. are trying to teach people how to pray is Neo-Catholic, they are taking a form that was rejected by our Protestant forefathers and hoisting it back into the modern church -I say we need to be discerning and reject it as heresy.
I understand that there is false prayer. I know there is a false prayer movement, false religions that influence, and so forth. However this does not mean that IHOP is in accord with it.
There is a false and a true contemplative prayer. You can contemplate God in prayer in a way that is not evil:
Contemplate
1 .To look at attentively and thoughtfully.
2. To consider carefully and at length; meditate on or ponder: contemplated the problem from all sides; contemplated the mystery of God.
As for the emergent movement and prayer and Rob and Eugene I know that IHOP preaches emphatically against the emergent movement and so in that its leaders. So therefore the 2 can not be tied together in the sense of their prayer.
As for the other I cannot say a lot. I have not heard anything substantially wrong with Richard Foster. If he did have something wrong that were not essential that would be a situation of chew the meat and spit out the bones. I have also heard that the Catholic Church has historically had good in it like Augustine for instance and so I cannot say that the monastic movement is all false.
Just because the protestants rejected something does not necessarily mean they were right. From what I have read many were militaristic murderers. And though they had reformed they still had a ways to reform. Often as well when someone reforms from something they often in zeal go to the opposite extreme.
So, there are no actual proofs here to discredit IHOP. There are comparisons. There are generalizations. There are statements. There are seeming ties. But, none of these are actual proofs to discredit. Do you agree with this? Or are there any actual proofs?
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| | 2009/1/14 15:14 | Profile | Ruach34
Member
Joined: 2006/2/7
Posts: 296
Beijing
| | Re: | | This thread is beginning to look like the 'Davidt' hour or 'Late-night on davidt' channel. Forgive the snide remark but David, did you not hear anything Mike Balog wrote. Please consider taking a break and simmerin' down now...
'Unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and dies it abideth alone...'
all of us; our emotions, brain activity, intelligence, comfort, will etc...(you get the picture) must die. Our whole self-life must die and until it does we are only asserting our SELF life.
'but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' [John 12:24}
Please consider the words of the moderator. i personally have not found more solemn, God-focused and Spirit-led moderators anywhere on this wide world of web-dom.
_________________
RICH
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| | 2009/1/14 17:02 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Ruach,
Quote:
This thread is beginning to look like the 'Davidt' hour or 'Late-night on davidt' channel.
This thread has nothing to do with me. Have I spoken often of myself? I think at most my nickname has my name. Have I been trying to push my own specific agendas that lift me up? Almost wholly I have been responding to false hurtful accusations against Israel, IHOP, Eschatology in general, and some against myself personally. Or is it my many posts? Because I believe I haven't posted more then maybe 2 a day.
Usually when a person does not agree with a topic that someone is talking about and they are not able to prove it false they begin to attack the person instead of the message. Sometimes this is just but I do not believe I have given any reason for this. I do not believe I have ever displayed an argumentative spirit, an over zealous ignorant extremism, or any other number of things.
I think you are possibly presuming things and ought to retract the things you have said. You have no grounds to make such a statement.
Quote:
did you not hear anything Mike Balog wrote.
I did. I read through it. Did you not read my post? If you had I believe you would see that I did.
Quote:
Please consider taking a break and simmerin' down now...
Why would I take a break? Have I done something wrong because I would readily admit if I am or did. I earlier made it a point to explain that I was not hyped up but was mainly responding to attacks that were saying certain ministries were of the devil and so on. I was only writing things literally but not with a bad attitude. I also have not overly posted or pushed things to extremes.
Quote:
'Unless a grain of wheat fall into the ground and dies it abideth alone...' all of us; our emotions, brain activity, intelligence, comfort, will etc...(you get the picture) must die. Our whole self-life must die and until it does we are only asserting our SELF life. 'but if it dies, it bears much fruit.' [John 12:24}
I don't understand why you would say I am not dead to myself or bearing fruit even specifically in this instance.
Quote:
Please consider the words of the moderator. i personally have not found more solemn, God-focused and Spirit-led moderators anywhere on this wide world of web-dom.
I understand I am not questioning anyone's godliness or maturity. I have considered the words thoroughly and patiently. If you have read my posts you would see my reasons. I also would ask you to consider my posts. I also believe myself to be solemn, God focused, and Spirit lead. It seems to me that you have not read them or at least understood them for if you had you would not be posting such things as you have. You have made statements based on presumptions and without reason and I exhort you to re examine yourself in this.
In the end I do not even want a post about me to be about myself. But, I hope that in responding I will be able to show that it is not. Also, to remove accusations off of me so that what I say is not made void. And, so in this bring things away from me and back to the topics. And I don't even really want to make it about the topics in a debating way but I feel it needful to instruct certain errors on certain topics for edification. |
| | 2009/1/14 23:28 | Profile |
| | Re: Good Words Greg | | When I awoke this morning and went to my morning devotions, I'm in the "little psalter" right now:
Psalms 101-110, the Spirit reminded me of what I had read the day before that you posted and the Spirit said to me, "This is profitable", so I cut and paste this to a Doc:
Quote:
Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)
Pray Daily: Spending 2 hours in prayer and Word (Book of Revelation once a week for 3 years)
Fast Weekly: Setting your heart to fast 2 days a week as a lifestyle *
Speak Boldly: Standing as a faithful witness in allegiance to Jesus' heart for the Church, Israel and the nations
Do Justly: Doing works of justice focusing on the fatherless and oppressed
Give Extravagantly: Giving to the prayer movement (beyond our tithe)
Live Holy: Walking out the Sermon on the Mount and keeping the Purity Covenant
Lead Diligently: Leading weekly prayer meetings and Bible studies (focused on training forerunners)
To me, the most simple roadmaps are the best. To those who can read long theological tretises and essays, O' God bless them, I like the simple maps, this is very good and profitable for me.
Thank you and God bless you, and davidt, God bless you dear brother.
If any of you have a chance and the leading read Psalm 104 today, it made me think of the majesty of God's creation, and it made me think of the upcoming planting season; how wonderful it is to walk thru a glade of oak and locust trees coming to life, to see milk cows eating the first gleanings of pastures, to smell the new breath of life in the fields, to watch the bees go too and fro, to see the first emerging winterwheat.
How I long for the green country, Psalm 104, true this "earth" is passing away, rolled up like a garment, but now, this time, He created it, we care for it, and recieve His blessing from it.
How I long for the green country, just to sit under a wild cherry tree and praise His Holy Name, contemplate Jesus, meditate on His Word, and sup of the Good Things that are here and now, recognizing how much greater there awaits.
Psalm 104 brothers and sisters.
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| | 2009/1/15 9:01 | | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: Mars Hill | | Quote:
Mark Driscoll is reformed in his doctrine, holds to the orthodox teachings of the bible -his close relationship with John Piper should be a source of comfort for many people on this forum. He preaches reformed theology and doesn't hold punches when it comes to sin. He has also told Rob Bell to repent.
Not everyone is pleased with Mr. Drisoll's ministry. Here are excerps of an email I got today from "Christian Newswire". I deleted portions for obviouis reasons.
"For years, Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle has styled himself as hip and relevant and gritty. He's made a name for himself with his irreverence, his ultra-cool persona and most of all, for his crass discussion of sexual matters. It is this discussion of sexual matters that is increasingly removing Mr. Driscoll from the company of Christians who believe he long ago crossed a line of acceptable conduct for an evangelical pastor.
Pastor Driscoll, DELETED Driscoll also sees himself as a sex advice counselor on his Mars Hill Blog, DELETED In short, he makes Planned Parenthood instructional videos look tame.
The fact that this press release is unlikely to make it through Internet filters speaks for itself. Author and former head of Eagle Forum in Washington state, Cathy Mickels, issued a press release yesterday, decrying the foul material being passed off in the name of relevant ministry by Mr. Driscoll. I join Mrs. Mickels in her profound disgust that this pastor has been legitimized and endorsed by leading Bible teachers like John Piper and Erwin Lutzer. Driscoll is allowed the platform that he has because Christian leaders have not said, "enough is enough!" Women are now having to speak up about the degrading and filthy content of Mr. Driscoll's "ministry."
At a time when American young people are hit in the face with graphic sexuality in every facet of our culture, the church should be a safe haven where the sacredness and privacy of the act of marriage is respected by pastors. Those with sexual issues need to receive private counseling---not sex seminars in a church auditorium. For generations, Christian pastors have managed to convey the Scripture's teachings on fornication, adultery and the beauty of sexuality within marriage without sullying and cheapening it, Driscoll- style.
Mark Driscoll is a sad product of our times. While waving his orthodox doctrinal credentials, he has simultaneously embraced the spirit of the age when it comes to his treatment of sex. In the process, he is pornifying the church and only adding to the moral squalor of our culture.
Contact: Ingrid Schlueter, Co-Host
Crosstalk Radio Talk Show
414-881-5852
In short, I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff!! (MODS: if you deem this too [EDIT] revealing, delete this post).
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2009/1/15 21:02 | Profile | Miccah
Member
Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin
| | Re: | |
ginnyrose wrote:
Quote:
Not everyone is pleased with Mr. Drisoll's ministry.
I agree sister. When I was newly saved, I was impressed with Mr. Driscoll, but this article speaks of reasons why I no longer endorse (sp?) Mr. Driscoll's teaching methods.
Though he speaks of real life situations and things that should be addressed, his approach is something to be desired.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff". I do want to point out that I think that the majority of his teachings that I have heard are sound, but the ends do not justify the means. Also, I heard Mr. Piper say that he doesn't agree with Mr. Driscoll on these types of issues (was in a teaching I heard from Mr. Piper a few years back).
_________________
Christiaan
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| | 2009/1/16 0:52 | Profile | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: | | Ginny,
I would take Ingrid's commentary with a grain of salt. I lived in Seattle for a good chunk of my life, and while I would consider myself very prude, I have been exposed to more overt sexual references than most people on this forum. I would consider myself pretty conservative for someone from Seattle.
Mark Driscoll's ministry is in Seattle. He talks abut the things that his congregation is concerned with. He is against homosexual fornication, he is against sex outside of marriage, he is against pornography and other sexually immoral practices.
What has gotten Mark in trouble is that he preached from Song of Solomon and actually told people what it meant -bible scholars have written about this stuff for ages, but the average person in church is totally oblivious... now you may ask, why did he do this?
Well it is in the book! Of course Song of Solomon is an allegory about Jesus' love for the church -but at the same time it is a very romantic book about the love between a man and his wife.
Mark Driscoll got in hot water because of what he said was PERMISSIBLE in a marriage!
The fact of the matter is that we live in a generation where the church is bombarded with false information on sexuality -and for the most part our response has been to ignore it and not address it. This has been a mistake and has lead to countless problems. Mark Driscoll speaks authoritatively against sexual sin, but also with freedom about what is permissible for a Christian to do within the confines of marriage -I may not agree with everything he says, but for the most part he has addressed the subject matter well.
The problem with people like Ingrid is an issue of contextualization. Ingrid is probably living in on the upper peninsula, attending a small Swedish reformed church that hasn't grown a single soul in the past 50 years, refuses to wear pants, doesn't have a drivers license and sits at her computer doling out judgmental criticism of church leaders all day.
Its easy to attack people from an insurmountable tower of self-righteousness. I have seen Mark Driscoll's ministry at work, and it is a light in the darkness in Seattle, I would encourage any of my friends or family to attend, because I believe that God is really at work there.
_________________
Ian Smith
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| | 2009/1/16 8:44 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Quote:
In short, I would NOT want any of my single, unmarried sons or grandchildren to read this stuff!! (MODS: if you deem this too [EDIT] revealing, delete this post).
Not in the least, I do not know if it could have been handled better. It is beyond a state of disbelief that this is even possible ... Having this 'role' and some responsibility I followed up on it ...
It is a sad commentary on our present state of affairs, this bizarre pragmatism - The words 'tact' and 'crass' made to be meaningless with the later spun off as acceptable, championed even.
Suffice it to say that this is so bad that even the mention of it will not see the light of day here, (those that were deleted). If one wishes to search this out on their own, be forewarned, but do not even think of bringing it out here as a matter of discussion - There is nothing to discuss before the eyes and ears of those that frequent these pages. It will be deleted immediately and if necessary, locked.
Perfectly handled sister.
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2009/1/16 9:16 | Profile |
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