| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: The International House of Prayer Onething Conference "ESCHATOLOGICAL REVOLU | | Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)
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|  2009/1/10 13:29 | | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Davidt I listen to one sermon and heard this.
Mike Bickle says
"Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us. The tribualtion is against the anti christ. The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church."
This quote is taken from the session on the 28th Dec 2008 with Mike Bickle.
Mikes teaching sounds like the manifest sons of God teaching, which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world.
So what does the bible teach us how is the Antichrist destroyed? It's done by the Return of Christ, for Christ will destroy [him] with the brightness of his coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 Not as Mike and his new teaching says that the tribualtion through us will destroy the anti christ.
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Colin Murray
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| | 2009/1/10 15:15 | Profile | davidt
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Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Savannah,
I think the one point you are trying to make by this article is you are claiming the promises to Israel have already been fulfilled.
I can say that preterism as a whole is obviously an erroneous theology.
Much of the reason why people held to this view historically is because the biblical prophecies had not been fulfilled for an extended amount of time. So naturally they tend to lean their interpretation by the circumstances they were in.
There is no way that all prophecy is fulfilled. The tribulation has not begun at no time have we seen 1/3 of the population die at once. We have not seen the sun darken and so forth ect ect.
If you are stating that prophecy has been partially fulfilled then you are correct. However in the area of Israel this is not true. If you read in Revelation you will see that Israel is mentioned as distinctly from the Church. Why was Jesus so passionate for His people. Why is the gospel first to him and so forth as I have already posted multiple proofs to found my statement and position.
Also, to state "again" the Church is one with Israel and sons of Abraham and so forth. And not all natural Israel is spiritual Israel. But, they have spiritual promises toward their natural state. God has made spiritual promises to natural Israel. They are to come spiritually first to God and then much of the world will follow. For if their falling away proves to be reconciliation and salvation for the world how much more their return. The original and still standing prophetic plan of God is for Israel to first be saved and then be a light. When God turned to the Gentiles first things were put out of order. Things right now are not right and if the order were put back in place then things would be much better.
Lastly, as I saw your post I was saddened in that you are so far off in the dark when it comes to this all important matter to the heart of God. And also just in general that such doctrines of demons are espoused. Please do not take this as if I were writing from a bad attitude.
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| | 2009/1/11 11:41 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Mahoney,
Quote:
Personally, the jury is still out on what I think concerning ethnic Israel...concerning God's promises... But, I must say that I do have questions about some of Mr. Brown's premises.
Quote: Of course, this is preposterous. But, in the event that you are still uncertain about the calling of Israel, consider this simple truth: If God could forsake Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could forsake the Church! If God could replace Israel, in spite of His unconditional, everlasting promises, then He could replace the Church! So, if you hold to a theology that says, God has forsaken physical Israel, or The Church has replaced Israel, you had better be extremely careful.
Well he made many points and in this one instance it is not a direct biblical argument but I believe it to be biblical. It is not one of his stronger arguments but carries validity.
Could the Church be replaced? No. Then why should we think Israel could be. Neither the supposed Latter Day Saints nor the Islamist's can replace the Church and this is obvious and so with Israel. Often when you look at something from a fresh perspective is helps to clarify things.
To teach replacement theology is much what false religions and anti Christ/Semitic spirited cults have done. The Muslims think they have replaced Israel and the Church. The Latter Day saint think they are the latter day saints. They believe there was apostasy and they are now the new thing.
Quote:
Just because someone does not believe that God still considers His land covenant with Israel ( I myself am still unsure) this does not mean that they think that the Church replaced Israel. Unfortunately though, many of the proponents of this "natural Israel theology" usually label those folks believers of "Replacement Theology."
It is true that many people are in error and go to extreme however you cannot bundle all the people up and generalize.
If you are saying that the Church has not replaced Israel then you are not specifically teaching Replacement Theology.
However to say that Israel is not in the land by providence can lead to false things. The anti Christ and the nations will hate Israel and attack them and I don't think that one would want to be with them and do the same. Corrie Ten Boom in contrast would be a better example.
The issue of Israel is not a light matter to stand on the fence about. Jesus said if you are not with me then you are against me. He also said that his servants will be with Him where he is. So if Jesus is for Israel then you also should be. Or else you might be found not with Him and against Him. You may say that you are not against Israel, but are you for them?
So even if you are not saying that the Church has replaced Israel yet still saying that they are not in covenant then it is just as bad in many respects.
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"Replacement Theology." This of course is the breeding ground for all anti-Semitism in the church.....supposedly...
Once again people can come to extremes but you cannot completely generalize and therefore discredit.
I do not think that replacement theology necessarily leads to anti semitism.
I think though if you read throughout history this doctrine would more effectually bother you.
Also in a sense one might say that it is necessarily a doctrine that leads to anti semitism in that it is a doctrine of devils.
It is therefore by devils conjured up, fueled and motivated, and a door way and breeding ground for such things (as has been thoroughly demonstrated).
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No, the Church has not replaced Israel, but I ask you, has not Christ fulfilled Israel...Are not:
So you are asking has Christ replaced Israel?
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The Old Covenant now fulfilled in Christ? The Substance has come. The shadow is past.
The shadow and old covenant was the Law not Israel.
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My one main contention with those who talk about Israel all the time is that, it seems, (and this may just be my perception) that they end up preaching and teaching "Israel" instead of preaching and teaching "Christ".
This can often be the case. As it is with many things like evangelism, holiness, prayer, revival, and so forth.
One must however have a "passion" about things that are of importance. Often in passion one may err but in that you must give mercy since much was from good intention.
But, yes I have seen people be kinda weird and off in it. Some preach them as if they are good. And some are extreme Zionists in the sense of militia and so forth and that should be pointed out and corrected and kept from eccentricity.
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I find it funny that people can passionately defend the election of Israel (and they should) but those same people will deny election in Christ. Ephesians says we were chosen..in Him.
I find funny much about Calvinism and Calvinists without trying to be offensive and I could list things.
Many people as myself hold to a mystery and see both sides of the matter and so deny neither side totally.
Adam was chosen but he had to choose and as we can see he chose wrongly. Noah, Abram, and so forth were chosen but they had to chose to live by faith and obey God as all the other in Hebrews 11. Israel was chosen by God but had to choose to obey/ go/ trust/ and so forth.
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It seems (again this may be my perception) that when proponents of natural Israel speak of the Church as compared to Israel, the Church is portrayed as separate from Israel.
The Church and Israel are distinct in a sense and one in a sense. So in conclusion as I said like 3 times there obviously are those who go into error into extreme and they are wrong and it is good to be pointed out but this is not what I am saying and other should not be generalized with them. |
| | 2009/1/11 12:53 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Mahoney,
Quote:
Do you ever notice that God always seems to be raising up a new generation of ________________ (fill in the blank)
I hope He is.
You must understand that the Lord is going to strengthen His Church in the last days which we are in. The Bible does say in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.
You might also be careful not to form a mocking scoffing spirit.
And I don't think you could say that people were saying a generation will arise that hasn't since you have not lived longer then a generation.
If you noticed the Jesus people was a generation. Often God can work in generations just as He can work in nations or families or other sets of things since they are tied together in one way or another.
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| | 2009/1/11 13:01 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Murrcolr,
Quote:
Mike Bickle says "Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us. The tribualtion is against the anti christ. The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church."
This quote is taken from the session on the 28th Dec 2008 with Mike Bickle.
Mikes teaching sounds like the manifest sons of God teaching, which teaches that an elite army of 'overcomers' will either destroy or subdue all the enemies of Christ until they eventually gain power and authority throughout the world.
From what I understand the manifest sons of God teaching is not held by IHOP as it has for a long time been denied on the IHOP website.
Mike is not saying that the Church is going to be warring on the world throughout the tribulation physically. He is saying that their prayers will release the wrath of God on the earth as it states in Revelation that the bowls of wrath are mixed with the prayers of the saints.
He was also speaking in contrast to the pre trib teaching that if the Church went through the trib that they would be victims. However we would be more like Moses in releasing the plagues and we would be exempt like Israel was from the plagues. And so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer.
When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh. The judgments come down on the earth against the world and since the world is under the sway of the Devil and so forth these plagues are also against the anti Christ. I also understand that it is when Jesus returns that the anti Christ is destroyed but this is the completion. The day of the Lord as it says in the beginning of Revelation is not talking about sunday or saturday or the Sabbath or something. It is talking about the day of the Lord as in the day of His returning and judgment. So John saw the day of the Lord and the day of the Lord is not just the return but all that which works up to His return starting at the tribulation.
Also I think that manifest sons of God theology is more of a kingdom now post millenial theology whereas the eschatology being taught here is pre millenial. |
| | 2009/1/11 13:10 | Profile | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
davidt wrote:
Mike is not saying that the Church is going to be warring on the world throughout the tribulation physically. He is saying that their prayers will release the wrath of God on the earth as it states in Revelation that the bowls of wrath are mixed with the prayers of the saints.
He was also speaking in contrast to the pre trib teaching that if the Church went through the trib that they would be victims. However we would be more like Moses in releasing the plagues and we would be exempt like Israel was from the plagues. And so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer.
When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh. The judgments come down on the earth against the world and since the world is under the sway of the Devil and so forth these plagues are also against the anti Christ.
There is a big difference between Judgements and tribulation We are told that Tribualtion comes on God people on the latter days.
Tribulation meaning Great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering. An experience that tests one's endurance, patience, or faith
Deut 4 v 30-31 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
We must struggle through many tribulations in this world.
John 16v33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14 v 22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must go through much tribulation to enter into the kingdom of God.
Paul tells us through that through much tribualtions we enter into the Kingdom of God.
Listen to John the revelator as he says in
Rev 1v9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John is saying here he is our brother in tribulation for the Word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Lets look at John 16v33 again
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. It the same reason we have been told about the End times that fear will not come us but we will rise up in faith and be of good cheer when the tribualtion comes.
Lets look at what you say Mike is saying
Quote:
When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh.
This to appears to me that it's very oppossite of what Jesus is teaching in John 16. Jesus says In the world we will have tribulation but to be of good cheer as he has overcome the world. Mike says that the tribualtion comes against the world and the kingdom so we can overcome it like Moses did Pharoh.
1Jhn 5 v 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Why do we need to overcome again why do we need to defeat the Devil and cause tribulation(justice prayer) to come through us to defeat the devil his Kingdom and the world when Jesus has already defeated him. As long as we keep faith in Jesus we will have victory over the beast his image and his number.
Quote:
so we would not be the receivers but the givers of justice prayer
Your saying we are not going to recieve tribulation but will be the givers of tribualtion through justice prayer.
That just wrong Rev 13 v 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
You'll have a choice at that time worship the beast and his image and recieve the mark. If not you'll pay the price with your life. Who'll will be the one who enforces the worship of the beast.
The false prophet his main purpose, as stated in Revelation 13:11-17, is to make the whole world worship the first beast. To do this he performs great signs, even calling down fire from heaven. He gives breath to the image and all who refuse to worship this image he causes to be killed.
Know that seems to me like there is a False religious system that will cause a great tribulation on the earth when people refuse to worship the beast and take his mark.
Listen to what I say THE FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSYTEM WILL CAUSE THE GREAT TRIBULATION THAT WILL COME ON THIS EARTH AS THEY ENFORCE THE WORSHIP OF THE BEAST.
Matt 24 v 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When you see the abomination that causes desolation from then shall be the great tribulation.
To end with a positive note
Rev 15 v 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
A People of Victory who have believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and have refused to bow.
_________________
Colin Murray
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| | 2009/1/11 21:00 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Murrcolr,
Quote:
Your saying we are not going to recieve tribulation but will be the givers of tribualtion through justice prayer.
I was not saying the Church will not go through tribulation at all. I believe the Church will go through tribulation from the world and anti Christ but not from God. I differentiate between the tribulation that comes upon the world through plagues and such and the tribulation which comes upon the world through martyrdom and such.
Quote:
Why do we need to overcome again why do we need to defeat the Devil and cause tribulation(justice prayer) to come through us to defeat the devil his Kingdom and the world when Jesus has already defeated him. As long as we keep faith in Jesus we will have victory over the beast his image and his number.
So you are saying we should not and do not need to pray?
It does say that we have overcome but it says again in Revelation to him who overcomes. So we still need to act out this overcoming to the end. And do you think we will be able to overcome without prayer.
This is like saying we have been saved and born again so why do we need to pray any more for grace love and victory over sin. Though we have it it still needs to be worked out.
Jesus has overcome the world but His second coming procession is the complete fulfilling of it. When Jesus comes back He overcomes the world completely.
At the very least we are to pray Maranatha and Lord come. Is this not a prayer for justice. Maranatha and let all those who love not our Lord Jesus Christ be anathema. Will not God give justice to His elect who cry out to Him day and night. Jesus comes back for His people and judges the earth in response to the prayers of the saints. Here is one example of the prayers of the saints being tied in with the judgments of God:
Revelation 8:3-5Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand. Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
Quote:
Quote: When Mike said the tribulation is against the anti Christ specifically what he means is that it is generally against his world and kingdom just like Pharaoh.
This to appears to me that it's very oppossite of what Jesus is teaching in John 16. Jesus says In the world we will have tribulation but to be of good cheer as he has overcome the world.
Mike says that the tribualtion comes against the world and the kingdom so we can overcome it like Moses did Pharoh.
It is true that Moses overcame Pharaoh. But it is also true that before the children of Israel were released they went through tribulation.
So I am not saying we will just defeat the anti Christ and the world with no tribulation. Jesus is coming to free us from the anti Christ and his kingdom just like he freed Israel from Pharaohs kingdom but during that time there will be tribulation on us.
Israel suffered tribulation from Pharaoh and Egypt. But they did not receive the tribulation of plagues and so forth and were exempt and their cattle. In the same way I am saying this happens to the Church and this is an example of how I differentiate between the 2 types of tribulation.
p.s. I think you come to conclusions a little too fast and are predisposed and inclined to presume error a little too much. First you claim manifest sons of God with very little basis just because it was said tribulation will come through us. Then you come to think that I believe the Church will not receive tribulation. I can at least see how you come to the conclusion on the latter, but I still think it a bit crazy. For to say that I don't believe the Church will receive tribulation is like trying to teach a school teachers the abc's. It is an obvious fact that the Church will suffer tribulation and I find it ridiculous that you would write a long post to affirm such an apparent thing. |
| | 2009/1/12 0:12 | Profile | davidt
Member
Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 327
| | Re: | | Neil,
I was blessed by this video interview here on SI of Corrie Ten Boom.
[url=http://media.sermonindex.net/17/SID17004.wmv]click here[/url] |
| | 2009/1/13 10:51 | Profile | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
davidt wrote:
So I am not saying we will just defeat the anti Christ and the world with no tribulation. Jesus is coming to free us from the anti Christ and his kingdom just like he freed Israel from Pharaohs kingdom but during that time there will be tribulation on us.
I hear what you are saying but that is not what Mike Bickle said in the statemnt I posted ealier. He clearly said "Know this is new new for some of you. The tribualtion happens through us not to us.
I am only repeating to you what I heard from Mikes mouth and this is the reason I quoted scripture saying that we will experience tribualtion. I do not know what you believe or don't believe about anything. All I know is you posted the link and assumed that this is what you believe.
When I heard "The tribualtion is against the anti christ" I about fell off my chair how can a man who reads the same bible as me come up with that statement.
Then to follow it up with this.
"The major storyline of the book of revelation is the destruction of the antichrist through the praying church"
Now that statement above does sound innocent enough and encourages Christians to pray. But I believe that is not what is being shared. Far from that! I think the meaning behind this is that Christians should pray to become the executioner of God's wrath. Know that the root of that mind set is MSOG or what we know it as today Joel's Army.
Listen to what Earl Paulk teaches in The Wounded Body of Christ "The last enemy to be conquered is death. Who will conquer it? A mature Church will come forth with the kind of authority and power that will be able to stand in the very face of Satan" Earl Paulk is a teacher of the MSOG.
Could you agree that sound similar to Mikes Bickles statement.
Quote:
p.s. I think you come to conclusions a little too fast and are predisposed and inclined to presume error a little too much.
Asking questions does not make me a bad person, nor does it mean I have a "religous spirit". This forum is open to all types and there are many people here with many different beliefs and experiences.
I don't know what you believe and if it seems like I was getting on your case I am not. I desire only to look at scripture and understand the truth of scripture an walk in it.
_________________
Colin Murray
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| | 2009/1/13 17:07 | Profile |
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