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Joined: 2008/4/11
Posts: 10

 Does God still judge?

The question I have been wrestling with over past few weeks is this:

Suppose there is a overflow of wickedness in a community, Is there a possibility that God's anger will be revealed against the community, like in terms of natural calamity, etc (In the new covenant)?

 2008/12/26 12:45Profile

 Re: Does God still judge?

Maybe in "bumbing" this someone a bit more experienced than I might want to post, also!
But here are my thoughts and what I believe...
In the old testament, God sent judgements upon a nation because of their total disobedience and wickedness. However, God used a prophet as a warning first: Abraham and Lot with Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah with the flood, Jonah was told to go to Ninevah, Joshua was warned about the fall of Jericho...
I believe that the disasters/famines of today are not a direct judgement of God, but a result of man's decisions and greed or recklessness. As far as I know there hasn't been a true prophet of God predicting/warning of impending "natural calamaties" because of wickedness under the new covenant in Christ Jesus. It's not something I have studied as such (you've piqued my curiosity though!) and maybe someone else will have other ideas?? :)

 2008/12/27 15:40

Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62

 Re: Does God still judge?

I tend to agree with Hquest on this one. One thing I'll add though is that in the OT, God usually didn't deal with individuals, but as nations. And again, profits were sent with warnings for them to repent. Now, we're more dealt with as individuals.

 2008/12/27 16:18Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida



Two things brought me to the conclusion and unswerving faith and strong conviction that [b][color=000099]nothing happens in a Spirit Filled Christian's life by mere chance.[/color][/b] Reading this book and reading the book of Amos (Amos:4:7: And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered..)

This understanding has given me a calm peace and a clearer view of what goes on around me. If I am encountering many irritants - stubbed toe, sliced my finger instead of the carrots or so forth, I know I need to stop what I am doing and focus on God. I need Him in constant focus, so I can stay humble and be prepared to jump to do His will when it is put before me. When I allow daily cares to become the focus of my day I can trust Him to get my attention. Be forewarned [b]it is very easy to brush aside His proddings. The human conscience is [i]easily[/i] thickened.[/b] How tragic, God speaks and we ignore.

If you are working on a task and everything goes wrong, seek His counsel for what is *really* wrong.

Highly recommend you read this book, it opened my eyes and, Lord willing, will do the same for you.

Kindest regards,
white stone

[b]The Mystery of Providence[/b] by: John Flavel (a Puritian writer)

Description: First published in 1678, this little work well illustrates and explains the purpose of God for his people. Do we believe that everything in the world and in our own lives down to the minutest details is ordered by the providence of God? Do we ever take time to observe and meditate on the workings of providence? If not, are we missing much?

It should be a delight and pleasure to us to discern how God works all things in the world for His own Glory and His people’s good. But it should be an even greater pleasure to observe the particular designs of providence in our own lives. ‘O what a world of rarities,’ say’s John Flavel, ‘are to be found in providence…with what profound wisdom, infinite tenderness and incessant vigilance it has managed all that concerns us from first to last.’

It was to persuade Christians of the excellency of observing and meditating upon this that Flavel first published his Mystery of Providence in 1678. Since then the work has gone through many editions. [b]Based on the words ‘God that performeth all things for me’ (Ps.57v2) this work shows us how providence works for us in every stage and experience of our lives.[/b] The book is richly illustrated from the lives of believers and from the author’s wide reading in church history. There are avenues of spiritual knowledge and experience opened to the Christian in this work, which he probably never knew existed.

Considered by many to be THE classic work on Providence.


 2008/12/27 16:58Profile

Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Does God still judge?

God absolutely still judges people and nations in the world.

To say that the curses -- sickness, diseases, death, violence, calamities, tyrants, etc. -- are not part of the Wrath of God, or the Passive Wrath (as some say), is naive. These things certainly aren't the "grace" of God, are they? Or does God have no part in these things? Nothing happens without the consent of God's sovereign authority. However, this is not to say that all things (ie. sin & evil) are from God; for truly God tempts no man, nor is there any shadow in Him, yet it stands that God's greatest judgment in the world is proclaimed in this present NT day, [b]Romans 1:28, 32[/b], "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient ... Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." So if we were to question: where are the judgments of old? There are still many natural judgments but the modern "scientific" mentality and naturalism have taken away the fear of God, that we are rushing upon eternity, from the signs of the last days. And the greatest judgment has been revealed from heaven against all ungodliness in the spirit of man, which is unseen.

Only those who are in Christ Jesus have passed from death unto life, from judgment to mercy, yet, the wrath of God is still satisfied for the redeemed. It was not annulled or abolished, just as Jesus said the law would not be, but fulfilled, accomplished, paid in full by His propitiation for our sins. This is the reason the Mosaic Law, a law based on ordinances, has not been passed on to the Gentiles according to those interpretations of men but rather the Law of Christ, which is the perfection of the Ten Commandments, and is not in external practices only but is based on a new heart, a new nature, a new spirit after the image of Christ -- it is faith that works by love (charity) in the Holy Ghost.

Likewise, consider these things:

Ananias and Sapphira (which is NT).

[b]Acts 12
21.[/b] On an appointed day Herod, having put on his royal apparel, took his seat on the rostrum and began delivering an address to them.
[b]22.[/b] The people kept crying out, "The voice of a god and not of a man!"
[b]23.[/b] And immediately an angel of the Lord struck him because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and died.

Or when Paul curses Elymas the magician and tells him, "Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time." And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand ([b]Acts 13:9-11[/b]).

I could find a lot more examples in the NT, but these should do.

The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament.
A.W. Tozer has said it well, "God never pits the Father against the Son. He never pits the Old testament against the New." For indeed, they both agree in One. In this deceitful era of "God of grace and grace alone" the judgment of God against the individual sinners and the nations of the ungodly have been forgotten.

[b]John 3
36.[/b] He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Read sometime, "[url=]Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God[/url]" by Jonathan Edwards.

If you are working on a task and everything goes wrong, seek His counsel for what is *really* wrong.

I don't know about this concept. I understand the principle of providence that nothing happens in anyone's life (saint and sinner, alike) by mere chance but I wonder if what you are implying is akin to horoscopes.

Oh, no, I lost my keys ... I have sinned against God and this is my punishment!
Ouch, I stubbed my toe ... I haven't been praying enough!
Hm, I got a rash on my arm ... I rebuke thee Satan!
I blinked and then lost an eyelash ... woe is me!

Or, maybe you just misplaced or lost your keys and stubbed your toe and got a rash, etc. I believe the point "that everything in the world and in our own lives down to the minutest details is ordered by the providence of God" is not for the purpose of interpreting "signs" but for the revelation that God is perfectly sovereign and nothing takes Him by surprise but that He has already known and declared all things from eternity past. And likewise, that God is with us in and through all things, leading us on to eternal life. And if along the narrow path, a toe is stubbed or keys are lost then do not look for an interpretation ("what really is going on") but earnestly desire all the more to be delivered from this cursed, fallen world of toil and trouble. Oh, to be freed from this body of death -- when mortality shall be swallowed up in life! -- and we shall forever be with Him in eternal joy. Honestly, if I cut my fingers with a box-cutter or something I don't blame satan or God or myself for some sin (hidden or otherwise), but rather I desire all the more to be absent from this body (whether through death first or the resurrection) and to be present with the Lord where I shall no longer have to deal with such trivialities.


 2008/12/27 22:17Profile

Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re: wonder if what you are implying is akin to horoscopes - God forbid

Dear Brother Bog,

We are in complete agreement for the first part of your post. I would like to add this, to your comment:

. . . this is not to say that all things (ie. sin & evil) are from God; for truly God tempts no man, nor is there any shadow in Him,

Let me refer you to the book of Amos. [b]Amos:3:6: Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?[/b]

For the part addressing my post, your criticism is due, because in my effort to express how completely I feel God is in charge that I confused my point. I do nothing along the lines of your description, to do so would be completely wrong. I never said I blame God, satan or myself for some sin, you carry that a little too far, but seeing that you completely misunderstood my comment, you may think that of me. For giving that impression I am very sorry.

Kind regards,
white stone


 2008/12/27 23:27Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497


One can get into some controversial areas when you declare natural disasters are a form of God's judgement. When I reiterated this after Katrina, I got thoroughly trounced here on SI. :-( And this declaration came from someone who lived there! Oh, sigh...

Anyhow, if one questions whether God still works in this manner under the new covenant, one only needs to study Acts and Revelation. The calamities God sent to earth as described in Revelation was with the intention of getting people's attention and provoking them to repentence. Nothing more. Judgement has a two-pronged purpose: evoke the victims to repentence and destroy wickedness, which means people bent on defying God.

I can understand urban folks being revolted by this concept, but if you lived close to the land, depended on it and the weather for survival you will understand this perfectly. All of us know we cannot control the weather, so who does? And we know that adequate rain, sunshine are essential for the growing of crops and if they are not forthcoming, people wonder "what is God telling me?"

We have heard of the drought in the USA. And the excess rains. How about the excess cloudy days like we have been having? Didn't hear about it? Old timers say we are now having a normal Missippi winter. Perhaps, but we have not had in in many years. So what is the end result? Those of us who grow tomatoes hydroponically are being challenged by fungal, bacterial diseases like never before. Yes, adverse weather as well as pleasant weather rests all in the hands of God and we do well to take note and act accordingly: listen! What is God telling me? Am I summitted to this voice? Where is my security?


Sandra Miller

 2008/12/28 8:52Profile


Ginnyrose, I see what you mean... I'm trying to tread carefully here, too!

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread, by anyone, that God doesn't judge sin today or that He won't in His final judgement. Yes... absolutely... God is sovereign and God judges sin, but the examples quoted of God's judgement have been against the heart of the individuals who have disobeyed God, such as Ananias and Saphira and the gentiles who, because of their hardness of hearts, were given over to their wickedness in God's divine judgement. The apostle Paul warns that to take communion in an "unworthy manner" brings judgement from God. But is this the same as the judgements of God in the old testament?
God's children have an individual and direct relationship with God through Christ (Jeremiah 33). I believe that there is a vast difference between the consequences of sin on the individual, through following the desires of the flesh, and God's judgement/wrath in the OT, such as wiping out an entire nation.
I believe that God deals with His children differently, and individually, under the new covenant. Just like we are not judged according to the law, but according to the Spirit. It's the Spirit rather than the law which becomes the controling principle, Paul tells us in Romans 7. The law brings death, but the Spirit brings life. Of course the new covenant does not negate the old, but it is far more superior and glorious! Because of the New Covenant, we now have a personal relationship with God, through the Atonement. God judges according to our hearts/relationship with Him, and not according to the mosaic law (the old covenant)... Galatians 3, and thank God He does, because I know that I would be doomed if I didn't have the Spirit of Jesus dwelling inside of me!
Isn't it wonderful that even though we might disagree at times, that Jesus draws us together as One Body in Christ Jesus! Thank you, Lord!

 2008/12/28 13:19


There is no other way for God to judge the sins of the nations but in a temporal sense. It is in the here and now that national or corporate sin is judged. God judges personal sin personally, and national sin nationally. But we must remember that prosperity may be as much or more of a judgment than affliction.

The Cause and Cure of Earthquakes-John Wesley

National Sins and Miseries-John Wesley

Yet not all accidents are necessarily punishments, most often accidents are mercies intended to draw us to the Lord.

Accidents, Not Punishments-C.H. Spurgeon

Old Joe

 2008/12/28 13:54


Does God still judge? Yes.

To easy.

 2008/12/28 15:32

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