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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Just who IS responsible for this state of affairs?

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TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Robert,

I say this respectfully, but the children of Israel gathering manna in the wilderness has nothing to do with fresh revelation. It does speak of the provision of God for his people, but to take this text and apply it to fresh revelation from the Spirit is simply a stretch. Jonathan Edwards gives a thorough discussion on this kind of Biblical interpreting in [i]Religious Affections[/i] - I would recommend it to everyone.

The letters in the book of Revelation are Scripture - so using them to support fresh revelation doesn't really make much sense.

You mention that our conditions change - I disagree. The Biblical teachings on sin, justification, the fruits it produces, church order, the ordinances of the New Covenant, and all other Biblical teachings are perfectly suited to our current condition the same as they were to the condition of the first century man.

This is really an entirely different topic, in some sense, than the original post, so perhaps, if people want to discuss this topic, it could be discussed in another thread. However, the topic has been discussed at length here before.

With care in Christ,
Taylor


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/12/24 23:44Profile









 Re: Who is responsible???



I see the church constantly drifting toward Apostasy, while constantly churning toward repentance and holiness.....a constant flux an change as some are overcome by the world, the flesh and the Devil, and some overcome unto holiness....with a wide mix in between. I see the Church as an entity....a number that no man can number, a whole, and the Church is primarily in Heaven..not on Earth.


I also believe that their always has been a remnant, a minority I think, probably a hidden minority, who have maintained a purity very pleasing to the Father. Hebrews 11, and the 7000 "that have not bowed their knee to Baal" in Elijah's day.
This is a portion of the message to the 7 churches of Revelation; not that they were not united by the same Holy Spirit, and part of the Church of the redeemed but that they were unique in their flavor...the character of their fruit.



If we were to accuse men of this crime, let us begin with Paul, Peter and John, the Chief church planters of all of the early Church; Paul being the Chief. In acts 20, it became clear to Paul that the seeds of perversion were already sewn within the infant body he planted, best identified in Acts chapter 20. Vss. 29 and 30..."for this I know, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.

"Also, from among yourselves MEN will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples away after themselves."



This was evident in a very, very young Church, filled with holy revelation and the care of the great Apostle himself...Ephesus.


So, was Paul to blame? Were his warnings and admonitions too weak? Was he not diligent? I think he was not to blame, but the thing that Paul feared came upon much of the church. Why? In the end of it, as I see it, it was the spirit of clergy/laity....the "NICOLAITAN" heresy.....essentially, there is a ministry class, that is capable of leading you, that you, as a sheep, should follow. The qualified, the ambitious.



These are they who "love the pre-eminence", and "do not receive the brethren". 3 John.


What then what do we gather from these historical scriptures? I think one lesson is that each member of His body must learn to walk with God alone, and this is the very nature of Faith in itself. No one will stand before God , in Judgement day for you. No leader and no Pastor or mentor. Sola Scripture! The Word alone, agreeing with the Spirit of God, melded into our faith, and our walk.




Possibly another title to this thread is, "Where did the Devil get in?" I am saying that he was there , right at the cradle in Ephesus, and lurking in the baby churches that John oversaw, as he is here today. I think, that one of the main avenues of attack has always been through men, and the aberration of doctrine that oversight, shepherding , a ministry class to feed and protect the church in a domineering fashion is God's way, and it isn't.


continued for timing's sake.








 2008/12/25 0:59









 Re: Who is responsible? 2

2. continued.....


It seems that in almost every cult there is a strong leader. Think of one. At least the founder was strong, and it always points backwards to the Root of Deception...the mother of Apostasy...a deceived, an anointed leader..... in whom the church evolved round.


The Church then establishes doctrine, that the laity MUST adhere to, in order to be a part of that particular Church. The Word; sola scripture...scripture alone...is trumped by the strong leader, and the simple faith walk of the simple saint is swallowed up in the leader's charisma, or the peer consciousness of it's combined leadership. This is where we get the proverbial..."WE BELIEVE!" This is the modus operandi of every cult and aberration on the Earth...from the legalism of SDA theology, to the venerable halls of the Mormon Tabernacle.


I would step on toes to name some of our more established denominations, but most have a rigid qualification or parameter for a brother or sister to belong. It is almost based on man being the "master of ceremonies", with controlled meetings, from the announcement to the benediction, and the handshake.



The Lord has no place to express Himself, for Man is in control. Wherever we see this, we must see the Lord's departure. Eventually, He removes His light permanently, and leaves an Anathema sign on the front door...and the saddest thing is that nobody notices. It will usually be billed as a "good service."


There is no community, really, for the lay "LAY", like bumps on a log to be soon fed something the Pastor deems appropriate.



The "Meeting" was never designed by God to trump or precede the Community. It is the vestige that Clergy/ Laity...the Pastor class, or the Clergy class, derive their power. Without the meeting being the primary force in the church, and the implication of the Pastors pre-eminence to run it, their is no clergy. "The Lords of the Gentiles are called benefactors, "BUT IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU!"



"You are all brothers, and have One as your Lord, even Christ!"



Everything is stripped, taken away, when WE allow these divisions to super cede scripture. What about body life? Where is that in our modern "PULPIT" centered churches? Where is the ministry that EACH believer has...."One has a song. one prophesies, one has a teaching, one has a testimony...as each member and joint supplies, and MORE grace is given to the weak, that Christ would be all in all!".[paraphrased]


Today's church usually has little or no relationship at all within her members, much less real Agape selfless Love...the laying down your life type one for all commitment the early Church has,,,the "Behold! How they love one another! type witness.



Usually, members go a lifetime without ever really knowing their Church family. They are lonely, and perish from a terminal loneliness and boredom. even after the Lord may leave a church, and the fruits of Apostasy are flowering, they are bewildered,; never being grounded in Christ, or His true body, they wither to death, It is very sad.



In the end, WE are responsible. There is One Body, One Lord, One Baptism, One Faith , above all, and in you all, not a subplot begetting more partitions. The least of the Brethren are honored as much as the Shepherds.



Individually, we will be judged by Jesus Himself on How we treat the least of the Brethren, which includes EVERY Blood Washed daughter or so on the entire Earth.


"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks JUDGEMENT[damnation] to himself, "Not discerning the Lord's body."

"for this reason many are weak, and sick among you, and some sleep"





I think of Churches and denominations and movements and local churches too. For this reason many are weak, some are sick, and some are dead.


Without holy and Godly shepherds who lay their live down for the sheep of God....feed, protect and manifest the living Lordship through their lives,,,[authority]..the Church will perish...[if it were possible.]


John said: "Beloved, let us love one another."























 2008/12/25 1:54
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
I think one lesson is that each member of His body must learn to walk with God alone, and this is the very nature of Faith in itself.



that is the essence of what is being said when we hear a "fresh Word from the mouth of the Lord" it is not a "new" word but an old word with fresh life/grace in it.

Quote:
No one will stand before God , in Judgement day for you. No leader and no Pastor or mentor



True but there will be much accountability in leadership when it come to the saints Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, an not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I think that much of the church has dropped the ball on the gifts of the Spirit which would be fresh direction, maybe even vision, discernment, true discernment into the mind of God on a matter that is relevent for the moment.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/25 6:23Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Quote:
The Lord has no place to express Himself, for Man is in control.



Scripture alone can get to be a god in itself, a legal billy club that is used by men to inflict control over other men, that is why every believer must be able to hear the Word of God within the Word of God for themselves. It is not that instruction and the teaching of sound/healthy doctrine is not important, it is, it is not that community and love of the brethren is not omportant, it is, but you can have all this and not have the life of Christ in your midst and in your life. Too many examples can be sited here. One who sits daily at God's gates or one who seeks His wisdom and understanding is the one who will be able to stand in the days ahead. It is not that they want a "new" revelation, but like Job they want to hear from God and God alone, not a man, although it may come from a man, but the very nature of the "Words" they hear will bring new life(fresh life if you will), it is that personal aspect of God interjecting into thier present life that is meant by "a fresh word from heaven'.


On much of your other observations I agree whole heartily, as pretains the church proper in its love or lack of love toward one another.


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D.Miller

 2008/12/25 6:41Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
You mention that our conditions change - I disagree. The Biblical teachings on sin, justification, the fruits it produces, church order, the ordinances of the New Covenant, and all other Biblical teachings are perfectly suited to our current condition the same as they were to the condition of the first century man.



You totally disregarded the 7 X command of Christ to hear was the Spirit 'saith' and your answers are [u]woefully[/u] short of the operation of the Holy Spirit in my posts. God did not abandon the church with the scriptures to navigate this life alone with a manual in hand. God is present active in our affairs and expects us to 'hear' what HE is saying to us. This is the clear pattern of the book of Acts all the way to Acts 27. What about that 7 x command? What say you?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 6:46Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I say this respectfully, but the children of Israel gathering manna in the wilderness has nothing to do with fresh revelation. It does speak of the provision of God for his people, but to take this text and apply it to fresh revelation from the Spirit is simply a stretch.



Is God concerned to feed His people bread? Or is He concerned to speak to them presently and actively? These things were a figure just as the pattern of the Wildreness Tabernacle was a figure. What did Jesus say?

[color=000066]But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that [u]proceedeth[/u] out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)[/color]

[color=000066]Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6)[/color]

The key to this passage is verse 63:

[color=000066]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: [u]the words that I speak unto you[/u], they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)[/color]

They words are 'life'; they are the every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God that we are to 'live' by. They are quickened words spoken by the Spirit and not the profitless flesh. And this is critical to our understanding of edification. We are not just educated in God's word, but are 'built up' when the Spirit quickens the word to us. It becomes fresh manna. We need it daily.

God is not trying to make us Christians academically; He is working to speak to us the word of His grace that we might by built up have an inheritance among the sanctified. The Word of God is the sword of the Spirit- not the flesh.

The Bible tells us so much. There are so many examples of peoples lives that it is impossible to read their and discern God's will for ours or our local churches. We need ears to hear what the Spirit says. We need to reject the grievous wolves that come in in the flesh with Bible in hand leading disciples after themselves and proof text God's people into the will of fleshly men. That is the main problem today in many local churches. The solution is that we determine again to come before the Lord and hear what the present active voice of the Spirit is saying.

What is the true Manna? In a sense it is Christ. But when we couple John 16 with our previous passages it is clear that Christ needed to ascend to the Father to send the Holy Spirit to communicate what HE is saying to us; His words that are Spirit and life. How else will we know His will? We have a general sense of God's will in His word. But our [u]accountability[/u] is realized when God [i]quickens[/i] His word or will to the hearts of a person or persons. If we are not hearing what the Spirit is saying then we cannot make corrections and are doomed to our own fleshly applications of a spiritual word.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 7:14Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Jonathan Edwards gives a thorough discussion on this kind of Biblical interpreting in Religious Affections - I would recommend it to everyone.



You may commend us to Edwards, but Paul commends us to God and the word of His grace.

[color=000066]And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. (Acts 20) [/color]

I am shocked that you would commend Edwards words over Christ's 7 X commands? One of our greatest problems is our refusal to stop sifting through the blackened cold embers of a bygone generation. We need a fresh coal from off the altar and a cleansing of our blackened lips. We need to repent of our ongoing resisting of the Holy Ghost as our fathers did. We have kicked against the pricks long enough.

It is high time that we hear not Edwards, Finney, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitfield, Bounds, Tozer, Reidhead, Ravenhill, and a thousand others that we have formed into an almost 21st Century losely bound Talmud, and come before God until we hear in the present active voice what the Spirit saith to our churches.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 7:24Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
This is really an entirely different topic, in some sense, than the original post, so perhaps, if people want to discuss this topic, it could be discussed in another thread. However, the topic has been discussed at length here before.



This comes off way wrong in my ears. Forgive me if I am wrong, but it is coming off way to dismissive of such a [u]critical subject[/u]. We cannot afford to go forward in the 21st century sermonizing and proof-texting. Bibliolatry is as great a sin as idolatry as it seeks to establish a religion in the absense of God. This is what the pharisees did when they declared [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1959]It Is Not In Heaven (Bath Kol).[/url]

The original post seeks to establish who is responsible for the church. Responsibility implies revelation and understanding. The extent of our responsibility is the revelation of God brought forth individually or on a local church level. We have general moral responsibility from God's word, but there is a responsibility on a local church level and that implies 'orders'. What are our 'orders' from God? To hear those orders the word of His grace has to be in operation in the assembly otherwise it is hunches and guesswork.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/12/25 7:39Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
It is high time that we hear not Edwards, Finney, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Whitfield, Bounds, Tozer, Reidhead, Ravenhill, and a thousand others that we have formed into an almost 21st Century losely bound Talmud, and come before God until we hear in the present active voice what the Spirit saith to our churches.



Amen Robert, the great curse i think we focus so much on this. Yes it is a great blessing to read and and see what God said through these men. It can be of highly benefit for our spiritual life. But the truth is Edwards was not raised up for us today, edwards was raised up for his generation and wesley and Luther and all the rest for their time.

We can imitate Edwards and many do, with missing Edwards results by light years. We need to hear from God direct that he may rise us up and we be the man of the hour. And those who hear what the spirit says can be such a man.


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/12/25 7:42Profile





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