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Rafiki
Member



Joined: 2004/8/20
Posts: 30
His Hands

 Re:

I am really enjoying this Thread, Praise God!

My Apologies, to all if I appear to be a tad -challening in my character, in regards to this book.

Evangelist;

You stated...(Am I defending this book because I perceive it to be of value to me and should be of value to others as well, maybe even as far as they should believe what I believe)

Well, no not necessarily, but if the Lord chooses to use a book/tool to reach perhaps those that by no other way were able to be reached, then Praise God. Perhaps there are some
psychological strategies, along with the Word of God being used in this book. Well, don't we use some type of psychology in our day to day lives, along with the Truth, understanding that the truth surpass all. "WE CHRISTIAN'S UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD THAT SETS US FREE", and the word of God is used in this book. If a book is able to apprehend you both spiritual and psychologically, then it should be given a chance. There are times, when we can build some walls that are higher then the walls of Jericho, and nothing will bring these walls down, but something that could both apprehend spiritually and psychologically (with a shout - amen :-))

In your previous paragraph you used the word Sin. Well what is Sin? Really! We know because the Word teaches us that we all fall short, meaning that we all miss the mark. Does the world really understand Sin? How can they if they don't understand Salvation, because of comdanation. I believe that the book makes you think, and to think is a good thing. It draws you back to the path.

What i don't understand is why would someone want to bash a book that they have not giving themselves the opportunity or taken the time to read. Why put yourself through all of the Gymnastics of bashing it?

God Bless You




:-o

 2004/9/2 13:41Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Hello Rafiki.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough on my post that it wasn't Evangelist that answered but Evangelist that started the thread. He did not state...Am I defending this book......and so on, I did. As for psychological strategies, drawing back to the path, marketing practices, maybe that is some of that fancied goodness. If by me posting thoughts and opinions by other people about this book amounts to book bashing, then yes, I'm guilty. Let's keep on challenging.
jouko


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2004/9/2 16:44Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]jouko:[/b]

Forgive me for not expressing myself clearly enough in my previous posts.

Please don't get me wrong--posting other people's opinion is quite legitimate to the discussion!

What puzzles me, though, is how you could conclude that a book is not worth reading without actually reading it. You have stated that you have no intention to read the book at all; I would like to listen to your reasons why?

Going back to the article you have quoted, I did read most of it, and it seems to me that the author was a little too eager to find fault.

Finally, you said,

Quote:
A book, no matter what book, how good it's perceived to be will never do the same the Word of God does, set you free. I suppose the answer to this debate lies in this, will this book "lead" people to a living relationship with the Lord and not a "fleshy, feeling good kind of faith" that won't last ? Will people repent from their sins and receive salvation by grace and not by works ?

I totally agree that there is nothing superior to the Word of God. Only his Word, his truth can set us free.

As for the latter part of the quote, I have mentioned before that I have observed that this book had been a blessing to quite a few new believers that I personally know. I find it to be a good, readable book for helping new believers take the initial step of commitment to God.

There were concerns about this book being "a psychological piece of junk" or that the book is simply a "make me feel good" kind of book. However, I do not find that in my own reading or my own experience, and I have yet to see a substantial argument based on the book's content.

It is not my wish to "defend" this book--in terms of depth, it is certainly not comparable to many spiritual classics recommended in this forum; but neither do I find it to be a piece of trash, like others have either implied or asserted (although not much concrete support was given thus far).

I am well aware that different people might (and probably will) hold different opinions. I just want to know the specific reasons (preferrably directly drawn from the book) for those who see it otherwise.

I hope I have made myself clear. God bless!

Sam


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/3 12:17Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Thanks for the answer Sam and you're forgiven. ;-)
No offense taken in the first place, a spirited discussion is good. I don't believe I ever concluded that the book wasn't worth reading only that I have no intention of reading it to which I later added that I might still have to change my mind. In an earlier post you wrote;

Re:
Thus far, I fail to see much interaction with the content of the book itself. I have yet to see a fair assessment of its content.

Me again. What and how is a fair assessment ? Is it an assessment that concludes what I believe ? The articles I found didn't say it was all bad, in fact they say that he has much good in the book but..... I also believe that the articles I have read so far have done a quite in depth study of the book. It worries me when a doctrine comes into the church and is being implemented no matter what and people are being kicked out because they don't agree with the doctrine. It worries me when that doctrine uses outside sources to that doctrine to make it successful as we have in this case. Here are some examples of what the people behind this success boast about themselves:
CMS is made up of a team of talented individuals whose dedication and expertise have earned them a solid reputation for creating results.
Our strength lies in our ability to take an assignment from concept to completion. CMS has made a specialty of supporting direct and broker sales forces with programs, training, promotions and materials.
Under Minnie's vision and direction, CMS has developed a number of proprietary products used by CMS clients in the everyday management of their businesses.
A dynamic change agent, he is a proven leader in the development of marketing and sales organizations. His critical thinking ability has lead each of the companies he has been associated with to double-digit sales growth. His excellent oral and written communications skills and focused reports have consistently delivered successful execution of
programs.
Her extensive expertise in management, strategic business development, marketing, communications, sales, distribution, research, new product development, and creative development has helped clients optimize both long range and short term opportunities.
At CMS, we view it as our mission to help our clients grow their businesses. We do this by working with each client identifying opportunities and developing innovative, creative and profitable services which assist them in the execution of effective marketing, sales and communications program.
We believe in a true partnership between client and agency, one that fully integrates our services in a hands-on-style.

Me again. From what I see they have succeeded. But is this a business ? Are business concepts necessary for a church ? If you dig deeper in connection with this, you'll find that some of the "business" associations should be of concern to you and every christian no matter how popular a book or church is.

Pastor Rick’s 1995 book The Purpose Driven Church, is translated into over 25 languages and was voted one of the “100 Christian Books That Changed the 20th Century. More than 350,000 church leaders from 120 countries have been trained in Saddleback’s purpose-driven paradigm. Pastor Rick’s latest book, The Purpose Driven Life, has been the #1 or #2 bestseller on the New York Times bestseller list for almost two years and still selling about a million copies a month. It has been named “Book of the Year” twice- in both 2003 and 2004, and recognized as “the bestselling hardback non-fiction book in history.” It focuses on the truth that life is “not about you,” and shows how God can enable each of us to live for His purposes.

Your opinion again:
Now comes my very personal opinion: I think a lot of people, Christians included, simply cannot stand others being successful.

Me again. What is success ? and how do you measure it in Christian life/perspective ?

More from you:
Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?

Me again:
There are many reviews posted on this topic in this thread and I believe quite a few problems have been pointed out by the reviewers and quite a few good points as well.

Yours:
joukos: You have quoted large amounts of second-hand sources that critiques the original book by taking its meaning out of context. But of course, you won't know; after all, you have stated clearly that "I have not read the book and have no intention of reading it. I found this persons thoughts on the book and would like to share it, he seems to have read it." How would you know it's a fair assessment if you are biased even before you read the book?

Me:
Could you be specific about what meanings where taken out of context ?
I'm going on some leave for a few weeks and I believe a friend of mine has the book. If possible I'll read it so at least I can see the specifics that were taken out of context in the reviews posted whom you hopefully will post.
You're invited to our afternoon barbeque tomorrow and please bring your friends.
Thanks for answering and God bless you.
jouko

:-)


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2004/9/3 21:10Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]jouko:[/b]

jouko said:
[i]From what I see they have succeeded. But is this a business ? Are business concepts necessary for a church ? If you dig deeper in connection with this, you'll find that some of the "business" associations should be of concern to you and every christian no matter how popular a book or church is.[/i]

This brings us to quite another controversial theological discussion, which I was trying to avoid by suggesting that we discuss the [b]contents[/b] of the book. Not everything associated with "business" and "management" is evil. Nevertheless, I am hoping to focus the discussion on the book's [b]content[/b] and substance.

The "guilt by association" process often leads people to make conclusions well before they have even [i]read[/i] the book itself. That Rick Warren uses insights from business management to run his church has nothing to do with his book on Christian life -- the book [i]PDL[/i] does not presuppose an agreement on his church model. That Rick Warren encourages the use of contemporary music in worship services also has nothing to do with his book on Christian life -- the book [i]PDL[/i] does not discuss this topic at all. There were also charges about a "make me feel good" message, but that is also absent in the book, and as far as I could tell, Warren had consistently insisted the need for absolute surrender and obedience to God throughout [i]PDL[/i]. These charges, I presume, were also made on the basis of "guilt by association". My point is, there is a place for discussions of all these: business practices, worship styles, church growth models, etc. But I am only interested at the moment, in hearing how others interact with the [b]message[/b] of the book itself.

Agent001 said:

Quote:
Thus, I find PDL to be a good stepping stone to guide them into other spiritual classics. It is a spiritual milk that leads to more solid food. (And I have found nothing in its content that causes me great concern--nor have I found reviews that adequately point out the problems inherent in its content. Most negative reviews, it seems to me, flow out of concerns about the bigger issue of "popular" Christianity--how it is marketed and hyped up by media). So my approach has always been more pastoral than critical--how do I encourage and guide these people to continue to grow in Christ?

(I stand by my comments here)

joukos responded:
[i]There are many reviews posted on this topic in this thread and I believe quite a few problems have been pointed out by the reviewers and quite a few good points as well.[/i]

I have yet to see convincing arguments based on the [b]contents[/b] of the book. Perhaps you could highlight the few good points that you find convincing?

--------
The author of the article you have quoted was a little to eager to find fault, for instance:

[b]a. Day 5, 1 Cor. 10:13[/b]

The author acknowledged that the main point Rick Warren was trying to make was right, but still wanted to nit-pick on Warren's biblical quotation, especially that of 1 Cor. 10:13, claiming that his inconsistent use of the verse here and in Day 27 is "deliberate manipulation of scripture for his own ends." Pretty strong accusation here.

The author made a big fuss about [i]peirasmos[/i] in 1 Cor. 10:13. He claims that it should have been translated "temptation," not "test." But he was ignoring the the fact that [i]peirasmos[/i] can refer to both. That is why [i]The Message[/i] translates the verse, "No [i]test or temptation[/i] that comes your way..." Similarly, the NET Bible (a relatively literal translation) has "No [i]trial[/i] has overtaken you that is not faced by others..." Had he done his homework, it should not be difficult for the author to find commentaries that prefer a translation other than "temptation". My understanding is that both "test" and "temptation" are legitimate possibilities for [i]peirasmos[/i] in this particular verse. Perhaps the author was a little too eager to crucify Warren concerning [i][b]"deliberate manipulation of scripture for his own ends"[/b][/i]?

[b]b. Day 5, 1 Cor 4:7b[/b]

Again, the author is in agreement with the point of Rick Warren, but he still wants to prove that Warren manipulates scripture. Indeed, he spent some much time challenging a single biblical reference in parenthesis... perhaps a little too eager to find fault?

The author claims that Warren "has taken this verse out of context to give weight to his thoughts." Well, yes, the context of the verse in question is not directly dealing with human responsibility to take care of the gifts that God has given us on earth. But perhaps that is why Warren emphasised primarily on Genesis 1:28 (which the author acknowledged but still want to find fault in the details).

A case can even be made that Paul in his rhetorical question in 1 Cor. 4:7b, he was appealing to a universally-acknowledged principle to make his point. In that case, the reference by Warren would be warranted.

In any case, both issues are minor, and could hardly be considered "deliberate manipulations of scripture".

I shall stop here.

Sam


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/7 11:45Profile
theevangelist
Member



Joined: 2003/8/1
Posts: 82
United States Of America

 Re:

I said it once and I'll say it once more...YES I HAVE READ IT! The majority might be for it, but don't you know that the majority isn't always right? Does Caleb and Joshua ring a Bell?(If you wanna talk about Joshua) PDL is a whole lotta Garbage...Trash...Junk...Bologna! But its hard for you to see it(the truth) as it really is when you're raised in such a decieved environment, huh? You'll never know what it is to "live by faith" when you are not in THE FAITH, Christ is your life, and you are dead to self daily. Had you been, you would know that deliverance from temptaion and bondage doesn't come by faith in some 12-step program so-to speak --> (PDL Chapter 27). How foolish can you be? The apostle Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament, was trying to get the 'then Church' to come to the end of self by Faith in what Christ had done at Calvary. Warren is promoting self by none other than what the majority of Modern Churches are teaching - Psychology: which can basically be put in the words "trusting or leaning on the arm of the FLESH. The just shall live by _ _ _ _ _? Yes, Faith! Paul mentions it in Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews (I believe he was the writer of Hebrews, but that's another topic altogether), and Habukkuk says it in the Old Testament. Faith in who and what? NOT you nor I nor Warren but in Christ, and according to Paul, Christ and Him Crucified. Let me say it one more time so you don't miss it okay? YES I HAVE READ THAT TRASHY POOR PITIFUL EXCUSE FOR A GODLY BOOK. No it isn't helping you nor anybody who reads it. It's turning you from the Faith (If you were ever in the Faith), and it's destroying the body of Christ with heretical Humanistic teaching....NOT 100% Biblical truth. It's none other than a watered down gospel...a soft pedaled gospel...a tiny toe tip toeing through the tulips gospel! But if you want it, I nor anybody can stop you. Just don't say you've never been warned!


Straight from an old time pentecostal,
The Evangelist.

P.S. If younger Christians want Spiritual milk, tell them to get into their Bibles, and to seek the Lord them selves. The Holy Spirit still speaks to people today...and it isn't a man that gives the increase...it's God. (I COR.3:16) :-)

 2004/9/20 16:07Profile
theevangelist
Member



Joined: 2003/8/1
Posts: 82
United States Of America

 Re:

PDL - - > Psychological Driven Life

 2004/9/20 16:27Profile
Rafiki
Member



Joined: 2004/8/20
Posts: 30
His Hands

 Re:

Quote:

Please respect the fact that there are genuine, devoted Christians who hold different opinions on this book. What really "says it all" is ultimately our attitude and love (or lack of) towards our fellow Christians.

Rafiki;

And futhermore, let's keep the name of the (?) where saints gather together in worship and in prayer OUT of your mouth, amen. "Remember" that regardless of our opinion and YES, you are entitled to your own opinion, the word teaches us that where two or more gather together in his name, he is there.

Since, everyone seams to have there own opinion,
Why don't we try something new, let's read the book together. When voicing your comments about a particular (insight) let's back it up! Tell me, exactly what did he write or share that made you to believe it's a pieces of junk, which is not!!! Amen

As you all may know, I happen to believe that it's a great book.

 2004/9/20 18:04Profile
theevangelist
Member



Joined: 2003/8/1
Posts: 82
United States Of America

 Re:

Rafiki? Isn't your name taken from an witch/enchanting monkey from Lion King? And, The House of the Lord is not on safe ground. That's the Truth. With false teachers(like Warren and many others)and doctrines coming into it greater than ever before. (1 Tim.4:1,2,16) Let me remind you first of all by saying that the object of this whole relationship between an individual and God isn't about Me, Myself, and I. Oh yes, It is about one person. It's all about Jesus. Next, I, nor any other man or woman of God should respect anything or anybody that neglects the Cross of Christ. That's where The Faith is based around. And most of all, That's where we found the precious Master. And like I said before, if you, I, or anybody isn't dying daily as the Apostle Paul mentions(1Cor. 15:31), then it does become about us. Amen! In Warren’s gospel, it's really quite simple to say no mention is made of sin, repentance, or even the Cross. His message is this: Find God and you will find yourself (purpose),i.e., Secular Humanism. What did Jesus say? "...He that findeth his life shall lose it..." And, I'll let you read on...(Matt.10:38-39)Amen! An let me tell you now so you don't ask again...We ain't gonna read it together. However, I will read it for you. Let's start with page 9. "This is more than a book...". No it isn't more than a book. It is a book. The Word of God is more than just a book, and PDL is NOT the word of God!Amen! "...a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey." Where do you find that in scripture where men of God led others on any spiritual journey let alone a through a man made book who in reality twists scripture to fit his ideas? The HOLY SPIRIT led Christ on a 40-day fast...but that was the Holy Spirit. Warren isn't God. He shouldn't try to point anybody anywhere but to the Cross. God had ministered to others on different occasions as Warren wrote on page ten, but it wasn't because they read his book or any other MAN-inspired book. If I or you wanna be changed by God, and wanna know His will for our lives, get down on your knees and hear from Him, not some stupid book that claims it'll change you. NOT Warren! Funny, that's just the first couple of pages! My conclusion for now is if you wanna learn from a man - Learn from Jesus. Amen! There are four books at the beginning of the New Testament you can learn from a lot more than you'll ever learn from Warren. Amen! Keep posting 'em, and I'll keep providing 'em. God Bless.
An old time Pentecostal,
The Evangelist.

P.S.
:-)

Quote:
What really "says it all" is ultimately our attitude and love (or lack of) towards our fellow Christians.



Nope, brother or sister or what ever you are, I have to disagree with you again, real love is telling the truth to those you love, even if it hurts. True love is trying to spare somebody you love from danger. Ezekiel 3:20-21. :-)
Quote:
Sometimes we as fellow christians see it as lovelessness when others confront us. In Paul's letters he really confrunted the church members, even though some of them believed and had different opinions than he did.

(Special Thanks To Janice)

 2004/9/21 10:28Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

A gentle answer turns away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger. Pro.15:1

Quote:
Nope, brother or sister or what ever you are



As a sister in Christ, I do not appreciate this kind of talk to anyone.

May the words of my mouth and the thoughts of my heart be pleasing to you, O LORD...Ps. 19:14

In His perfect love, Chanin

Edit: we do such a disservice to the Lord when we use this kind of tone or harsh wording. We are to be examples of Him. It reminds me of my own self when I have fallen short and let my anger and my 'right to be right' get the best of me. :-o


_________________
Chanin

 2004/9/21 11:45Profile





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