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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

I must be sounding like a broken record by now.

We will see in something we read exacly what we want, if we look for it. This is simple science...the same science that, when beginning with the assumptions of truth of the Bible, sees creation being the result of the work of a Creator...but when follows the assumptions of Darwin & Co, sees "creation" as the result of a "random act".

I recently chatted with an individual, who stopped coming to this site, after he was constantly "confronted" by people on this site, with the sole intention, to establish themselves as right and this man as wrong (yes, I am aware that right now I am coming dangerously close to doing the same thing...I pray that you'll here the humility of what I am trying to say...as a man who is constantly being exposed as falible).

I have been trying to get this man to listen to "10 Shekels ans a Shirt", in hope that God will show him the source of the hurt and confusion he's experiencing. There are things that this man is saying, that shows an ernest desire to serve God faithfully, being totally true to the Bible, yet also trying to ignore it's "inconsistancy's", rather than confronting them, and finding that they don't exist (this statement will take considerable explaining to those who don't have "ears to hear", if I offend you by it, please take it up with me privately, before bringing it out in public). He has totally rejected nearly every speaker on this site, due to the fact that he perceives the arrogance of some of the people here, as being the result of what these men of God have to say.

He has some very "convincing proofs" of these opinions, even siting parts of the sermons preached. In the one recent discussion, he made a statment that made me weep. He said that he tried to listen to Keith Daniel's "Sermon on the Mount" message, and thought that Keith was "full of pride" for the manner in which he reads Matt 5-7. Anyone who has ever listened to Keith Daniel, will know that he is a man of intense humilty.

Consider that, this happened due to a preconceived idea, being brought into the listening of him, that was based upon the people Daniel is associated with (us), at least in his own mind. Could we be doing the same with Warren? Could we be relying on some very persuasive propoganda (which I have personally read) and other people views (which I have also read), rather than the book itself (which I intend to read, if only to clarify my opinion).

I have recently read a great deal of Masonic literature, from a christian website, only to find that none of it expresses Australian freemasonry, which is vastly different to that in the States. This has been done for the purpose of leading someone out of the lodge. This man is graciously lending me his masonic literature, to find a problem, regarding it's compatability with christianity. Alot of people have givening him books, refering to Albert Pike's Luciferian doctrines being in Morals and Dogma, not realising that there is no Scottish Rite in Australia, and that York rite doesn't acknowledge Pike. The point being, many of us are barking up trees that have nothing but shadows, when we should be looking for cats.

If you're gonna say something, make sure you know what your talking about. If you don't, then pray that one of us will change, to conform to God's glory, whether me...or you. That's what I'll be doing.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2004/9/1 8:16Profile
Janus
Member



Joined: 2003/9/26
Posts: 29
Cape Town - South Africa

 Re:

Jouko

You wrote:
I don't see a change in peoples lifes after being "indoctrinated" in Hillsong products, rather I see the opposite. Again, it's my comment, others might see it differently.

I see it exactly as you see it. I don't want to critisize any of the people who make the music or say that they are not sincere, but are we trying to work for the Lord or is He doing the work through us?
As Lars(lwpray) wrote:
Too many are therefore misled to a belief that man’s produce is pleasing to the Lord.

What do we see if we look at the ministry of our Lord, Jesus Christ? Did He engage into the things of this world and used their tools as a means to get what He want? Did He use all sorts of stuff that was attracting for the world to attract them to Him? NO!! He used only what He knew was from the Father and did not get near to this world or their means. He spoke the truth even though He knew it would offend others. But the offending was for their good - that they sould repent and return to the Lord.

If any of this I wrote this far offended any, please, it was not intentional and I write this from a sincere heart. I want you to see what the Lord showed me. I myself should offcourse open my eyes and see if the Lord dont want to teach me something here, but let us all then pray for our eyes to be opened.

Agent001 posted this:

Janus: You said, "I believe that every true Christian who realy seek the Lord and has read until this post, should have some doubts about this book" (emphasis mine). From this, I get your not so subtle message: that those believers who endorsed this book (like myself), are either not a true Christian, or not someone who "really seek the Lord." Essentially, all those who disagree with you are either unbelievers or carnal Christians. I respectfully disagree.

Whith the words true christians, I meant those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was born from above. I did not intend that all those otherwise was unbelievers or carnal. What I did say was that if read till here in this post, they should see there is some other sincere christians that does not agree with this book completely. Of course there is true things said in this book, but so in any other book! What I wanted to say is that all christians should have gone and make a small study of Rick Warren and where he comes from. There is adequit refferences and links in this forum.

Let us then find out everyone for himself if something is of God or not, not condemning one another but praying for eachother - that our eyes may see His light and not those of our fellow men.

Love in Christ
Janus :-)


_________________
Johannes Jacobs

 2004/9/1 8:28Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Lars ([b]lwpray[/b]),

I have high respect for your contribution in this forum and others. I share particularly the same interest as you in many other spiritual classics. My comment regarding "book-bashing" was (clearly, I hope) not directed towards you.

That being said, Rick Warren is not a motivational speaker, nor does this particular book exemplify anything of "man's produce." So if what you have said concerning "man's produce" and "Cain" is referring to [i]The Purpose-Driven Life[/i], then I'm afraid you are attacking a straw man of your own imagination.

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I'd first like to find out if we are [i]really[/i] talking about the same book here.


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/1 10:09Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:

My dear Agent,
I am not a book basher, and I am not taking the comment as pointing at me.
What I was trying to say is that I am not commenting the book per se but lifting up a principle which is commonly disregarded among us – the motivational speaker unwilling to take heed of the carnal twist.

By the way, I took a look at Warren’s web site.
The key word at the opening page was “Award-winning” rather than “Crucified”.
It is not a particularly good start to win me for the product of his.
Trying to make an impression is not impressive at all in the spiritual realm.

Every blessing,
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/1 10:20Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

[b]Janus:[/b]

Quote:
Whith the words true christians, I meant those of us who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and was born from above. I did not intend that all those otherwise was unbelievers or carnal. What I did say was that if read till here in this post, they should see there is some other sincere christians that does not agree with this book completely. Of course there is true things said in this book, but so in any other book! What I wanted to say is that all christians should have gone and make a small study of Rick Warren and where he comes from. There is adequit refferences and links in this forum.

The problem is, I saw little sincerity on the part of [b]some[/b] Christians who renounce the book to accept the [i]sincere[/i] opinion of other [i]sincere[/i] Christians who find the book helpful! As some have already admitted, some could launch a bashing campaign on a book that they have not even [i]read[/i] before, and have no intention to read. That is quite ironic, considering the fact that this forum is for the purpose of "book review".


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/1 10:22Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Lars ([b]lwpray[/b]),

Let it be known that I have my own doubts on some of the marketing practices associated with the Purpose-Driven series; but nevertheless, in my opinion, the [i]contents[/i] of the book are still solid, if not superb. One does not have to buy into their church growth and marketing strategies in order to fairly assess the book's substance, which I repeat, is the whole point of having this thread in the "[i]book[/i] review" section.

Sam


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/1 10:53Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



Why not follow through as to solidity on all levels.
A book on how to follow the Lord being marketed according to principles which does not follow the mind of Christ.
A contradiction. . . .
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/1 11:02Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Well, there are Bibles (and other spiritual classics) that are packaged and marketed by principles "that do not follow the mind of Christ"... (I have seen the NLT Living Water Bible sold by giving away bottles of water, is that not a marketing ploy?), does that nullify its contents as the Word of God?


_________________
Sam

 2004/9/1 11:24Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



I would probably be able to say something which sounds clever as an answer to your last point, dear Sam, but we are quickly moving into a cul de sac.
Let’s leave this part of the thread as it is.
Lars


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/9/1 11:33Profile
jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

Agent001 wrote. (I did change it a bit)

As jouko has already admitted, jouko could launch a bashing campaign on a book that jouko has not even read before, and has no intention to read. That is quite ironic, considering the fact that this forum is for the purpose of "book review".


I had a look at the first part of this thread and this is what it says;

I would like to know what other thoughts people have on Rick Warren's book "A Purpose Driven Life". Does anyone feel this book is more of a psychological piece of junk or Gospel truth? From what I've read so far, it glorifies man's ways and programs over Christ and "The Faith"(the finished works of Christ). What are your thoughts?


The Evangelist



I have gathered other thoughts as per request and haven't put my thoughts into writing, as I stated I haven't read and won't read the book. I might still have to change my mind on that. Every time I watch the news I form an opinion. I'm sure that everyone of us has had an opinion about something but haven't really known the "truth" about that something since we weren't there. Looking at the comments of "some" of us they have changed over the few weeks this thread has been developing. Some comments have been fair some less fair but that is all they are, comments, and that is how we should take them. If we start becoming a bit "restless" maybe even a bit "agitated" we should ask ourselves this question, Am I defending this book because I perceive it to be of value to me and should be of value to others as well, maybe even as far as they should believe what I believe.

A book, no matter what book, how good it's perceived to be will never do the same the Word of God does, set you free. I suppose the answer to this debate lies in this, will this book "lead" people to a living relationship with the Lord and not a "fleshy, feeling good kind of faith" that won't last ? Will people repent from their sins and receive salvation by grace and not by works ?


jouko


Things are wrong between the world and God. The world does not know Him. Its citizens do not love Him. They do not trust Him. They cannot stand before Him with acceptance. Their sins have separated them from God, and the guilt
of sin is bearing them down to deeper sin and a dark eternal hell. But God has sent Jesus Christ to make this right....[Christ] has taken upon Himself man's sins, man's obligations, man's wrongs against God. He has met the issue, and He has paid the penalty.....This is the gospel of salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.
A. B. Simpson (1843-1919)

The Spirit of God never heals [except] He wounds; and if those seeking Christ have not peace, it is because there is still in them some remnant of fancied goodness....There is a counterfeit Confession of Sin; let us beware
of this counterfeit. We may be sure the sorrow is not deep if the sin be not subdued....God kills to make alive. He smites men's consciences to make them judge themselves. The first great step when a man desires to be saved is
unqualified self-condemnation. Sin unconfessed is imputed; but sin confessed is blotted out by God. The sinner, coming in the name of Jesus, has a title to life; the ground of that title is the very name and justice of God. R. C. Chapman (1803-1902)

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord;


_________________
Jouko Hakola

 2004/9/2 3:57Profile





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