| Poster | Thread | live4jc
Member
Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203
| | Re: | | Hi Guys,
Honestly, I am not sure whether we can know definitely whether it is God's will for someone to stay in a church or to leave it. It depends on our reasons for leaving, and mainly I believe it depends on God's will for our lives, which may be different for each one of us.
In Paul's case, I believe he has very good and godly reasons for staying in his church, as he believes he is able to have an impact on the spiritual lives of the deacons in the church, through Bible studies. In my case, I believe I needed to leave a church we were in, due to the detrimental impact it was having on our kids, through the dancing and vulgarity that was a part of the kids program.
James says we ought to say, "if the Lord will." The apostle Paul wrote, "Let each be convinced in his own mind." (I know this is in regards to which day we worship on, but I think the principle can be applied to this situation as well).
In Jesus,
John
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|  2008/11/26 17:56 | Profile | Koheleth
Member
Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Honestly, I am not sure whether we can know definitely whether it is God's will for someone to stay in a church or to leave it. It depends on our reasons for leaving, and mainly I believe it depends on God's will for our lives, which may be different for each one of us.
Let's not get confused. We can know God's will so clearly in many situations. In light of what was said by live4jc, I want to add to some of my earlier comments.
If a "church" is gone to the world, it is no longer the Lord's. Now, a Christian may feel led to stay there in order to "have an impact" or "be a witness" but it is no longer a place of worship, sanctification, or fellowship. It cannot be considered a church in a believer's life.
Of course, as you say, a person may stay there, but they need to be sure it is the Lord's leading, because it would be almost entirely for the purpose of reaching out to those who need an experience of Christ, whether first-time or re-awakening. The danger in staying apart from God's explicit direction is that many peoples' walk has been lulled into lukewarmness by staying in a so-called church. Also, if there is a denominational structure, there is usually only so much that can be done.
On the other hand, sometimes Christians are too quick to bail out when there is still hope. I would never want to encourage a hit-the-road mentality in anyone. I just think we need to be honest about the situation if the Spirit is not Lord in a place that calls itself a church. |
| | 2008/11/26 18:50 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Quote:
Now, a Christian may feel led to stay there in order to "have an impact" or "be a witness" but it is no longer a place of worship, sanctification, or fellowship. It cannot be considered a church in a believer's life.
How many times have you seen this actually work? Have a positive impact on the group? From what I have seen it is the 'missionary' who will eventually succumb to the prevailing apostasy.
My thoughts,
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2008/11/26 21:47 | Profile | rbanks
Member
Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330
| | Re: | | Hi Brother Paul,
I have been blessed by your posts that I have read. I think you are very seasoned in the Lord. I also have been very blessed by the TNCL by Watchman Nee.
I believe that you said that the minister is a pretty good preacher but seems to be caught up in to using worldly methods to get people there. It seems that it has now gotten to the point to where this has become the main course. The Word is not the primary focus and the people are not growing spiritually but the church is growing numerically.
It seems like unless the Leadership can begin to refocus and turn the helm toward the Word and a deeper experience then it will eventually loose its spiritual vitality. I think meeting with the deacons for bible study is important; hopefully it will stir a spiritual hunger within them. I pray that God will give you the wisdom in how to go about everything and also words to speak at the proper time to the ready listener.
I know that you understand that everything rises or falls from the Leadership. I know that you believe in being led by the Spirit in everything you are to do without causing any discord among brethren. I sense the wisdom of God and humility in your walk with God in the way you write. I just want you to know I pray for you because we know that it will take God to bring about a spiritual awakening with in the Leadership before anything significant can happen toward a truly biblical church there.
God bless you brother in what God leads you to do, because we both know that God loves those people there and truly does want them to experience the deeper spiritual life that pleases Him. He is Holy and He will have a Holy people!
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| | 2008/11/26 23:11 | Profile | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: A Release of Frustration | | I can relate to your frustration. I do thank God for places like this web site where there is such a wealth of great teaching and preaching and also many other resources for articles and books from men who knew their God. By the wonder of modern technology and God's grace, I count many men whom I've never met or who are long since departed, as spiritual fathers.
I have this longing for New Testament fellowship and teaching of God's word that plumbs the depths and divides asunder soul and spirit. I've done the church shopping thing and considered home-church but each time I know that the Spirit is leading me just to grow where he has planted me. I have prayed much over this and right now the only answer is to "wait". I can tell you that I have learned much about my own selfish pride, impatience, and unbelief through this process. It has been a time of refining. Yet still the longing remains...
In Christ,
Ron
_________________
Ron Halverson
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| | 2008/11/27 15:48 | Profile | psalm1
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230
| | Re: | | They say we go too fast! This accusation comes from all directions. Our enemies do not like our speed and our friends are afraid of it. What do they mean? If they had complained that we did not go fast enough, I could understand them. If our enemies had argued that after all we say about the evils of sin, the terrors of the Judgment Day, and the damnation of hell, we do not believe in these things ourselves, I could understand that, and feel humbled under their indictment.
If our friends came together and said, "Why don't you increase the speed? Look at the dying millions at home and abroad. You have evidently got a wonderful way of reaching the masses. You have accomplished what no other organization has. You can adapt yourselves to all peoples and countries and climates. Why don't you push on faster? Why dont you train more cadets-send out more officers-hunt up more criminals, drunkards and fallen women? Go faster; get up more steam! Now, this seems to me would be the natural way of talking for both foes and friends. But no! The cry is not "Go faster but "You go too fast!" What do they mean?
Speed is a good thing, and, if combined with safety, the faster the better. It is reckoned good in traveling. I dont know of any train that goes fast enough for me. Time is so precious that unless it can be spent in sleeping or working, every minute of it is begrudged. My feeling whenever I am in a train is, "Now, engine driver, do your best, and fly away!"
Speed is reckoned a good thing in money-making. Who would complain if we were an Investment Company developing a profitable gold mine? The same people who complain of our speed in spreading salvation and saving men would all want to buy shares, become our partners or buy us out.
If we were a killing army, no one would complain of our going too fast on the line of victory, slaughtering Arabs, or Afghans, or Zulus, or anybody else who did not live on our side of the sea. If we killed plenty of them, burnt plenty of houses, took plenty of spoil, we should fascinate the world again as Napoleon did with the speed of his successes. Painters and poets and newspapermen would fill the whole earth with our fame.
But because God has given us a little success in saving men and women from endless damnation, and extending the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, there is a great outcryespecially from those who every morning pray "Thy Kingdom come! -that we are going too fast; they say we are ambitious and seeking great things.
William Booth
He seemed to be a forerunner in his day! |
| | 2008/11/28 0:45 | Profile | Lordoitagain
Member
Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA
| | Re: | | Brother Paul,
I found your post quite interesting. I can empathize with much of it. I was teaching an adult Sunday School class . . . getting deeper into the Word . . . and studying deep authors. I was teaching from Watchman Nees The Spiritual Man. Finally the monarch of the church told me to teach from the Gospel of Jesus Christ and not the Gospel of Watchman Nee. He was implying that my teachings were against the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . as if I had become a heretic or something. When the Gospel disturbs the comfort zone of sleepy soulish Christianity . . . . LOOK OUT! The messenger gets shot down.
I was very interested in this part of your post:
Quote:
I have also as of late been disenfranchized with the whole one-pastor-monarcy that I am beginning to find objectionable and unscriptural. Perhaps in some cases it is plausible; but when you have able elders and deacons and other brothers in the congregation who walk with God and are able to contribute ministerially, why not establish a system of spiritual checks and balances and allow God to bring in fresh ministry and rotate the prophesying? As it stands, everything must be filtered down through one man, and he has uncontestable executive power. If you object or verbalize your feelings to others, you can be in danger of sedition, or trying to cause a schism.
Last December, I visited a church "festividad" in El Salvador. The church group was quite different from the traditional Evangelical church of America. I was brought up in a Church of God (Cleveland TN . . . much like AG). I was a part of an independent holiness church for almost 7 years. Now Im in a Spanish mission. One of the preachers in our mission was a part of that fellowship in El Salvador for many years. I have diligently inquired of him regarding their system of operation. They dont have any ONE pastor. Psalm 23 in the Spanish Bible says Jehová es mi pastor which is their typical answer when asked Who is your pastor?. They point out the fact that Jesus didnt leave any one man in charge . . . he had 12. Another one of their quite different beliefs is that the preachers never prepare a sermon. They pray and study and MEMORIZE scripture. When they have service, one preacher reads a passage of scripture, and then 2 or 3 preachers preach on it (based on I Cor. ch. 14: 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.). It is always done totally impromptu under the anointing of the Holy Ghost. After the preaching, they all testify, and much of their testimony is repetition of memorized scripture. The brother that preaches in our mission knows the scripture probably better than any of the many English speaking preachers that Ive heard in my life (& Ive heard many). He needs no notes. It pours from his memory.
Ive asked him specifically about the decision making processes of the church. It is always a group thing. They get together and pray and seek God, and God leads them. When a church member is sick, they take turns visiting him, or they have an all-night prayer meeting and he gets healed, or they pray until God takes the sick home to heaven (whichever God chooses). In their thinking, they are sharing the pastoral burden, and it is not all on one person. Receiving a salary for ministry is taboo for them. They bring up the situation of Simon the sorcerer, and Peters strong words to him. They also cite Pauls method of working and preaching as much more honorable.
Having seen their very successful system of operation, which is so different from the traditional evangelical system, Ive studied the issue quite a lot. I too have been disenfranchised with the whole one-pastor-monarchy that I am beginning to find objectionable and unscriptural.. According to some studies that I have read, our current system of one man on the top is a trickle down from Rome. The Roman church established a priest at each place who reigned over his territory. When the protestant reformation happened, the same type of system continued . . . they just changed the name from priest to pastor. It is interesting to me that the word pastor is only used once in the New Testament in a list with other ministry gifts. Ive never found where the one ministry gift pastor was given any more authority than any other ministry.
I was questioning my El Salvador brother about the subject of authority. I asked what is the authority that believers and preachers are supposed to have. His answer was something like were supposed to have authority over sin, self, and Satan". It is a sad reality that many of the monarchs in churches have little or no authority over sin, self, and Satan in their own lives, yet they profess to hold authority over entire churches and territories.
I believe that when any man of God is proclaiming and exemplifying Christ, then his example (because Christ is being manifested through that person) becomes an authority to all who see it. That man of God doesnt have to stand over anyone with a voice of commandment shouting orders. His own example is a commandment for which all who see it will be accountable on the day of judgment. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. I Peter 5:3
_________________
Michael Strickland
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| | 2008/11/28 2:15 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ive never found where the one ministry gift pastor was given any more authority than any other ministry.
Yes, in scripture, the word "pastor" (to some, it's an office, to others it's a title) is grouped along with prophet and evangelist and teacher as those given by God for the perfecting of the saints in Ephesians 4; but in most western churches today, the term "pastor" has come to represent the brother who sits at the very apex of the pyramid of churchianity - in formal church buildings he is the brother who wears the hat of prophet (that is, preaching and public prayer); he is the teacher of doctrine and theology, and he is also the evangelist. He directs and presides over all the deacons and elders and micro-mangages what is being taught in Sunday school and where church funds are being allocated. He can have unilateral veto power....unless, of course, he was voted in by the congregation, or someone reports him to a Presbyter (in a denominational setting). It's a fascinating study to see how this one-man-rule over a fellowship came into effect, branching out from the original "plurality of elders" system I believe the early church operated under.
Another thing I've noticed is the public collection of tithes and offerings. I think giving ought to be done in private, without a preparatory announcement, and I don't think the offering plates should be placed indiscriminately before visitors and unbelievers. Why not just put a box in the back of the hall with a scripture like 2 Cor. 9:6-8 beside it and let whosoever will be led of their own heart to give and out of the cheerfulness of their abundance.
_________________
Paul Frederick West
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| | 2008/11/28 7:52 | Profile | Lordoitagain
Member
Joined: 2008/5/23
Posts: 632
Monroe, LA - USA
| | Re: | | SO TRUE! SO TRUE! I have had the same thoughts about the reception of offering. It's kind of difficult to "let not your left hand know what your right hand doeth" when a service is stopped for the special moment of giving. . . especially when it is done publicly with "who will give 1,000? . . . who will give $500? . . . who will give XX?"
When unbelievers come and get the impression that our God is poverty stricken and in dire need of our finances . . . or that He is a banking institution that is sure to return your money with high interest . . . we give them the wrong concept of God, thus pushing them farther from coming to know Him.
Oh, Lord help us to return to the simplicity of the Gospel!
_________________
Michael Strickland
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| | 2008/11/28 11:42 | Profile | White_Stone
Member
Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida
| | Lord help us to return to the simplicity of the Gospel! | | It would seem that this is exactly what He is doing - right here and now.
I find this thread very interesting and edifying.
The description of the Central American worship leaves me feeling sad about what we have in comparison. Of course, we have been physically unchurched for years. This was not our choosing but due to the life we were given. If you live on the road, in a van with 4 dogs, congregations do not welcome you into their new buildings, to sit and contaminate their padded pews with second-hand stench. Of the ones we did venture into, no one ever offered us a shower or a place to wash our feet. We were treated as if our poverty was contagious. Should the Good Lord have settled us in their vicinity we would not have gone to them to worship Him.
Even among homeless there are classes. Many of them are frightening because of their lawlessness and addictions but not all are such. Also, even though someone may be homeless and not an addict or mental, it is not a given that they serve Jesus. But I have found that the more one has to depend totally upon God for their literal daily bread and shelter the closer they come to seeing Him. The majority of people in this Country have never known true hardship but I believe their lives are about to be plowed and they will be ready to receive seed and give forth the Good Fruit of true repentance. I pray they will have time, for the time is already near for the harvest.
Praying for you all,
white stone
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Janice
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| | 2008/11/28 12:24 | Profile |
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