Brother Robert states.....

"I mean you will hear all kinds of messages but so few that put the ax on the root of the tree and challenge man's material gods."

Amen brother. Two of the thickest roots in the Church in America is mammon and divorce. These two issues, and the leaders inability or desire to deal with them, has caused much damage. I think it is so difficult because divorce and ultimately Capitilism runs so counter to the word of God. Now I know that it may be the lesser of two evils and I am not promoting its poor cousin, Socialism, what I am saying is that at least we, the Christians, should be a counter culture and not a sub-culture.

Bottom line on capitilism?......Buy something you do not need with money that you do not have.........Frank

P.S I saw a bunch of rich guys one time on TV. They were giving tips on how to become and stay wealthy. They all had various ideas but the one that they all had in common? Live within your means. If you can "afford," a $500,000 house, buy a $200,000 house. If you can "afford," to drive a brand new Lexus, then drive a Ford. Of course this flies in the face of the Bankers advice, but is actually much more Biblical. "Learn to be content."

Bottom line on capitilism?......Buy something you do not need with money that you do not have.........Frank


Now, why would the traditional church ever speak against anything like this? Most of our steeples have been setup by using a mortgage. I can't recall hearing about any church recently that paid for its facility in cash.

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Jimmy H

Hi Frank...

I think that there is a difference between capitalism and greed. The nation doesn't run on "capitalism" as a rule. It runs on a free market principles. It isn't that you must always want more, but that you have the freedom to say "enough."

Contrast this with socialism...or communism...where the government is allowed to tell you "enough" -- simply so that they can exchange your money for the votes and allegiance of the poor.

Do we really want to allow elected fellow citizens the right to say "enough" for each of us? The economy of this world is entirely different than it was in Jesus' day. You pay for your house even after it is "paid for" (via never-ending property taxes). Retirement at a certain age is now mandatory in some companies and life expectancies are much longer. People have to have an income to provide for them and their families long past retirement. Even the prodigal son's father had enough to leave a sizable inheritance to both of his sons. It isn't wrong to have "enough." It is wrong, however, to be greedy with it -- always lusting for more of this world for personal gain.

Socialism's call for the "redistribution of wealth" is actually a mask that causes the poor and lower incomed individuals to become greedy and covet the income, belongings and lifestyle of those who have more. This is easy for me to say because I don't have a lot (at least by American standards). I am content with God has provided, but still desire to provide adequately for my wife.

I think that the current embrace for the redistribution and spreading of wealth is a testament to just how greedy the lower incomes of this nation have become. Few people in this nation are actually "poor" by international standards. I remember looking at the government housing projects that were located next to my college. I used to go in there to spread the Good News and was amazed at how well those "poor" people were getting along. Some of them had big flat screen TVs, fancy furniture and even nice cars -- yet they were still demanding of so much more (and complaining about how unfair it was for some to actually have more). They wanted a redistribution of wealth -- not because they were hungry -- but because they were greedy. Most of them were certainly willing to trade a vote for such promises too.

Recap: There is a difference between pure capitalism (and/or a "free market") and greed. It is flawed to think differently.

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Christopher

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Robert Wurtz II

As I stated, I have no intention of debating one "ism," with another "ism," it has never proven fruitful and glorifying to God in the past ....I think our brother Robertw says it best....

"I think we also need to ask ourselves to what extent do we trust the 'system' to be our source of provision."

You can pick your system and defend your own personal philosophy or choose to trust in God.....brother Frank

Hi Frank...

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Christopher

Hi Chris

Sorry for the sigh and the fact that you may have taken the "you," personally. That was you with a capital Y, meaning that you can put your trust in any sysyem, or you can put your trust in God, but you certainly cannot do both. Not sure why you mentioned voting?

Anyway, you are correct in your assertion about greed. The problem being, if one wanted to, one could easily make the argument that greed is the fuel that drives capitilism. I accept that many would have differing opinions on that statement , and it is only my opinion, as none of us speak infallibly on these issues.

Perhaps the main issue, as is always the case with the Church, is dependency upon God. The more we are dependent upon Him, the closer we will be to Him and the more like Jesus we will be. So, whatever it takes for the vast majority of Christians to become more dependent upon Him, I welcome that.

Chris, I would gladly debate Capitilism with you in PMs if you like? God bless you brother..............brother Frank

The problem being, if one wanted to, one could easily make the argument that greed is the fuel that drives capitilism.


Indeed, which has led many to espouse the doctrine, as quoted in Michael Douglas's "Wall Street," that "greed is good." Greed is looked at as a virtue which acts as the driving force of the market. For "greed" is what drives many business people to start a business and expand it beyond a simple mom & pop operation. An expanding business thus creates jobs, which empowers people to be consumers of created products and services, which causes the wheels on the bus to go round and round.

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Jimmy H

Hi Frank...

Sorry about the sigh. Your comment sounded more like a directive rather than open commentary. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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Christopher

On the eve of our glorious revolution, I would like to consider some additional biblical perspective on prosperity for the discussion here; the popular notion that greed is the driving force behind business is simplistic. Greed can never build a sustainable business, it only destroys it.

The plans of the diligent lead surely to advantage, But everyone who is hasty comes surely to poverty.

You must bring value to the marketplace or you will fail. Value and not greed is the driving force behind business.

When people see a news story exposing yet another major corporation brought to it's knees by greedy CEO's they are not seeing what built the business before the news cameras became interested...they are only seeing what has brought it down and are assuming that must have been what the business was built on. When people see greedy congressmen looting the country on the nightly news they are not at all seeing what built America, only what is destroying it.

I've been on the painful wrong end of this unavoidable truth, and on the happy good end of it as well. Whether you are an American, Japanese, or British businessman make no mistake about it...if you find an opportunity in a thriving sector and match skill with character you will prosper if you are not in a hurry to get rich. (Of course nothing is guaranteed, except if you have no skill or character, then it is guaranteed you will fail.) If you think being in executive leadership is your opportunity to take all the loot, to disenfranchise the people in your organization, and to cheat your customers instead of serve them, you will fail and go out of business. It is a mathematical certainty, that businessmen motivated primarily by greed are weeded out of the game. It may take longer in industries where the greedy leader walks into an established business instead of having to build it...but it will happen.

Gordon Gecko was just a movie character in a movie about inside Wall Street trading. As I remember, in Oliver Stones world, greed didn't work out for Gecko very well. In the real world greed doesn't do anybody any good either, even by the world's rules.

So please don't think that greed and a successful business are somehow linked. I've seen Christians who buy into this myth that all wealthy businessmen are selfish and corrupt. They cynically conclude that in order to carve a little piece of success for themselves they need to compromise like they think the world does it...and as a result their feet run faster to evil then the worldly business man who is lost but is bringing something of value to people.

Make no mistake about it...a lasting business is built on long term value and not short term greed. Not even the heathen can break that law...at least not without the support of some alternative revenue source saving them from failure.

MC

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Mike Compton