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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

we hold the conviction that the Bible teaches that no man can believe unless he is enabled by the Spirit of God.

You criminalise God by this theory.

God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for.

How do you defend this?

Quote:
It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power in and of themselves to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".

Tell why God would command somthing He know is imposible?
To do so is corupt.

 2008/11/12 14:55Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. (Isaiah 26:12)

Is faith a work? I think Paul would argue with you on that one.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/11/12 15:06Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
Is faith a work? I think Paul would argue with you on that one.



Excellent question.

Quote:
Every decision a person makes is for their greatest satisfaction, even if their ability to judge what will satisfy is greatly impaired. Intoxicated men have strong wills but weak judgments. Alcohol does not take their will, it perverts it. So does sin. As well, a man who ordinarily hates lying will eagerly tell one to save his friend's life. Such a man desires the greater satisfaction of preserving his loved one than of preserving his character, and so wills against his usual inclination. We see undeniably that the will is captive to ones ability to judge what will best satisfy his desires.



I find it fascinating how you have gone through all this explaining how people can will against their inclinations and then jump to the conclusion ...

Quote:
This brings us to the great problem, that mankind is born with a sinful nature which will always motivate him, at last, to choose self and sin over God.



[b]Romans 7
18.[/b] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: [b]for to will is present with me[/b]; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
...
[b]21.[/b] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[b]22.[/b] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[b]23.[/b] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[b]24.[/b] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[b]25.[/b] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul seems to say otherwise than you have concluded, that the willing to obey God is not the problem but the power to obey in himself is sin -- thus, would not Paul's argument rather agree with our statements?


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 15:11Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

I had to commant on this, it realy burns my ....

Quote:
anonimous wrote:
I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit....I don't really care how one says it. According to Romans 9: some INDIVIDUALS are "fitted to destruction", while other INDIVIDUALS are "afore prepared to glory".

Do you know that the term "fitted" means reformed?
Reformed from a vessel of honor to be a vessel of dishonor.
They are fitted or reformed from vessles of honor/wrath because of disobedienc.

God reforms the clay (Israel) because of their disobedience. Therefore, God does it out of judgment, so it is with all vessels of dishonor/wrath. God only reforms vessels into ones for dishonor/wrath only for the reason of judgment, never from the start or original purpose.

God does not create people to be born as vessels of dishonor/wrath, to do so would be corupt.

It would be non-sense to do so.
Example:
Gods will for a person is for them to end up in hell, because god wants a vessel of dishonor/wrath (not out of judgment), he did not elect him.
Therefore, this "doomed" soul would be doing god's will by sinning and never repenting, ending up in hell.
This doomed soul would be in hell by fulfilling his purpose which is god's will.
All this is with the fact that when people who do God's will and fulfill the purpose of their existence go to heaven; because sin is against God's will and those who rebel against their purpose of being created are [email protected]
Do you see that creating people to born as vessels of dishonor/wrath does not make sense?

Tell me how you think could an all loving, infinitely merciful God willingly create people to be born vessels of dishonor/wrath?

 2008/11/12 15:12Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Quote:
Do you know that the term "fitted" means reformed?



Really? I actually wasn't aware of that.

[b][u]"fitted" (Strong's 2674)[/b][/u]
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
--a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1) to complete
--b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
--c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be


I have already explained another view of [b]Romans 9[/b] on a previous page of this thread (https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=25776&forum=36&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1), so I am not going to restate it all again. [b]Romans 9[/b] does not necessitate that God is the One who has Sovereignly condemned people to eternal hell because He did not choose to regenerate them.


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 15:23Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
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 Re:

Logic, you criminalize God for supposing that He is responsible for mankind's original sin. Furthermore, you make yourself a hypocrite by stating that God is corrupt for expecting of men what they are not capable to do. Do you not expect drunkards to refrain from driving under the influence, and will uphold the punishments of those who do, though alcohol incapacitated their ability to make wise judgments? Do you not expect a man to control himself even when infuriated to the point of madness? Of course you do. Even so, the sin which mankind participates in by nature, from conception, perverts our judgment and directs us to freely reject every offer of the gospel until divinely sobered by regeneration. Man's inability is moral, not physical, and therefore he is accountable for his unwillingness. Unregenerate men are like Joseph's brothers, who "could not speak kindly to him," for the hate in their hearts.

Parents know that they cannot make children willingly eat foods they do not like. A parent may command, coerce, or cajole, but if it seems undesirable the child will not choose it. Thankfully, God has provided a remedy. Over time our tastes change, and this change is biological. We find that things once bitter to the mouth are strangely satisfying.

Likewise, mankind by nature hates the light and does not come to it. Hear John, "Light came into the world, but they did not come to the Light lest their deeds be exposed, " and "Men loved darkness rather than light." Are you a man? Then you would not come to the light, lest your deeds be exposed. Are you a man? Than you loved darkness rather than light. Are you a man? Than you were by nature dead in trespasses and sins, unable to stir a limb until God quickened you by grace unto faith for salvation. Perhaps you are more than a man, but worms ate a certain Herod who accepted such flattery.

This is not about heady argument. The question is whether God saves, or merely makes a way to save oneself. The question is whether the glory is His, and whether I can pray to God, "Save such and such, and according to your will let it be done." The question is, does God receive all praise, and is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, which is a gift of God.

 2008/11/12 15:28Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
The question is whether God saves, or merely makes a way to save oneself.

It is truly God that saves to the uttermost. Man is in no way capable of saving himself...but that doesn't make Augustine and Calvin right.

Quote:
The question is, does God receive all praise, and is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, which is a gift of God.



Yes God deserves all the praise!!!

(FYI, I'm not saying that faith isn't a gift, but Eph 2:9 says that salvation is the gift, not faith)


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/11/12 15:45Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

theopenlife wrote:
Logic, you criminalize God for...ect...

How do you defend what I presented?

You must also think that God will not enable some to believe and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.

Please explain this.

This is the same for [b]if[/b] repentance is a gift.

I will get to the rest of your post soon.

 2008/11/12 17:32Profile
sonofthunder
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Son Of Thunder i come from a land down under, due south at the bottom of your work globes

 Re:

Personally im not in either camp - that is im not in either ( mr calvins camp or in the arminians camp ) Nor am i some sort of cross breed or half-baked in the middle breed - with a foot in each camp or either party breed. A lot of these things are factious by nature anyhow. And tend that way.

But i would like to add - and was meditating upon this very selfsame THING only last night ...that the stream of truth ( that is to say pure and unadulterated truth ) often lies in the middle of the 2 extremes! Now That it is a poignant point and can even be backed-up in scripture.

Now I believe the scripture says (if im not wrong) that "divers weights and balances - both of them are AN ABOMOINATION TO THE LORD"

And furthermore think on this: There were 2 camps in Christ's day! And none of them - incidently recieved Christ's blessing or his approval...and they were (pharisee camp) and (sadducee camp) But both were censured by Christ: Saying this: Take heed and beware of the leaven of the pharisees and the sadducees! Now Both were preemeinent in Christ day! Yet neither walked in or possessed absolute truth! Both had issues doctrinally SPEAKING! For example when paul percieved in the council that the one PART were pharisee and the other PART SADDUCEE ...he cried out in the council!

For the pharisees say their is NO resurrection, neither angel nor spirit: but the pharisees confessed both. And as one former preacher Boy said the saduccees were certainly aptly named (sad)duccee! So clearly there were two streams of truth and two pre-eminnent camps present. But none were ultimately blessed or approved by Christ. ( both ultimately lost their "power base" with the power base "rightly shifting" to Christ and his to his apostles) hmmm. Which is why the Sadducees and the high priest often resorted to threats and to beatings of the disciples - as they sensed their power base was about to slip away from them! As the majority of Jews up until that time - had stayed with them! But a power shift came and a paradigm change - swept by them!
( another subject for another day - no doubt )

So The addage that Truth often lies somewhere in between is a true statement - and ive often taken what mainstream pentecostals teach and what apolagetics say and what all heresy hunters say...and then go away and think on the matter, and compared notes, weigh things up, and compare spiritual things with spiritual things! And This way i am submitting everything back to God and to his word of truth ( and truly berean like ) - This then serves to protect and to preserve from EVERY wind of DOCTRINE out there in christendom and in religious wonderland!


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Bro Stephen

 2008/11/12 18:32Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
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 Re:

Quote:
You criminalise God by this theory. God commands all to believe, but according to what you just said, He will not enable some to believe and condemns them for what HE has is responcible for. How do you defend this?



Logic, I respond the same way the holy Apostle Paul did.

[b]You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”[/b] But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” (Romans 9:19-20)

Friend, do you realize that Paul is answering the very question you just asked me?

Secondly, what I said about nobody being able to believe unless they are enabled by God is simply the truth Jesus spoke in John 6:65.

Quote:
You must also think that God will not enable some to believe and condemn them for what HE is responcible for.



No, friend, they are responsible for their multitudes of sins against the living God, none of which God forced them to do. We all deserve hell. Really understanding that would help much in this discussion. All of us, including everyone in this thread deserves infinite hell. It is no injustice if God chooses to save some, when it is just for Him to save none.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/12 18:43Profile





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