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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is their proof of the kjv text before 400 A.D?

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HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re: Is their proof of the kjv text before 400 A.D?

Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
I was just wondering, i hear their is but is it true. I mean you have people like peter ruckman and gail riplinger defending the kjv only and you have to be in question. I need the complete truth.



Riplinger has some major issues as far as her study methods and the way she presents some info (especially about Wescot and Hort).


_________________
Jordan

 2008/10/25 11:32Profile









 Re:Is there proof of the KJV before 400 AD?


To: Homefree89

I have not quoted Gail Riplinger, nor used any of her work in my defense of the King James Bible.


Sincerely,

Walter

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
I was just wondering, i hear their is but is it true. I mean you have people like peter ruckman and gail riplinger defending the kjv only and you have to be in question. I need the complete truth.



Riplinger has some major issues as far as her study methods and the way she presents some info (especially about Wescot and Hort).

 2008/10/25 11:39
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

waltern wrote:

To: Homefree89

I have not quoted Gail Riplinger, nor used any of her work in my defense of the King James Bible.


Sincerely,

Walter
Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:

bible1985 wrote:
I was just wondering, i hear their is but is it true. I mean you have people like peter ruckman and gail riplinger defending the kjv only and you have to be in question. I need the complete truth.



Riplinger has some major issues as far as her study methods and the way she presents some info (especially about Wescot and Hort).




I realize that you haven't quoted her. If you look at my post, you'll see I was replying to bible1985.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/10/25 11:46Profile









 Re:Is their proof of the kjv text before 400 A.D?

To Homefree89

[b]Yes, oh course the Catholics loved Erasmus so much--that is why they excommunicated him EIGHT YEARS after his DEATH, and placed all his writings on the Index of Forbidden Books!

[url=http://transmutations.blogspot.com/2005/11/erasmus-heretic-or-humanistic-hero.html]Erasmus: Heretic or Humanistic Hero [/url]


Luther and Erasmus were friends. Luther tried to convince Erasmus to leave Catholicism, but Erasmus thought that he could change it from within.

None of us mud balls are perfect down here on earth. There has only been one man that has ever been perfect and lived a perfect life- That man is Christ Jesus, the God man.

I choose to put my faith and my trust in HIM and in HIS WORD, that HE has promised to PRESERVE FOREVER:

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. (Psalms 12:6-7)"

"Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
(Deuteronomy 4:1-2) "

"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Jesus Christ, Son of God) (Mark 13:31) "

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. (Proverbs 30:5-6) "[/b]

[b][color=CC0000]I believe that God has preserved His Word. It can be found in the Authorized Version of the Protestant Body of Christ, the King James Bible. All you need is to read and study it. It might help if you have a 1828 Noah Webster Dictionary of the English Language (you can find it online, for free)
http://www.cbtministries.org/resources/webster1828.htm.
The meaning of words in the King James are all frozen in time- all you need is the 1828 Dictionary to help. Also, the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance will be a help too. It can only be used with the King James Bible, and provides the exact meaning of all the Hebrew words in the Old Testament and the Greek words in the New Testament. You don't need to attend Bible College, you don't need formal training, all you need to do is to unplug your television, and spend your time feasting on God's Word! [/color][/b]

[b][color=000000]However, if you do not believe God, and that He has the power to preserve His Word forever, then go out and get a newer version. Also purchase a Greek and Hebrew Lexicon. You will also need to attend a Bible College that teaches Textural Criticism, plus Greek & Hebrew, so that you can learn how to be a "scholar". Once you graduate, you will be able to cut and paste what you find in the newer versions to your own way of thinking, just like your predecesors, the gnostics, the first "scholars", and then create your own "bible". Once you "create" it by your "skills of textual criticism", you can copyrite it, patent it, and publish it, and you will be rich and famous. There are over 90 versions out there right now--- by the time you finish your "work" you might as well shoot for 100, because there are many others out there, just like you who have graduated from a Bible College just like the one you attended, creating their versions of their own "bibles" right now!

We each have free will, and each of us must choose. Do we believe God or do we believe the words in the garden, found in Genesis 3:1-5, where we hear the words of the first "textual critic":

"3.Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made AND HE SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, YEA, HATH GOD SAID, YE SHALL NOT EAT OF EVERY TREE OF THE GARDEN?
2. And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3. But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4. AND THE SERPENT SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE: 5. FOR GOD DOTH KNOW THAT IN THE DAY YE EAT THEREOF, THEN YOUR EYES SHALL BE OPENED, AND YE SHALL BE AS GODS,KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL.[/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Waltern,

Erasmus was a Roman Catholic to the end of his life. He wasn't forced to be that way, he chose to be a Catholic and defended the Roman Church and Pope to the end. His, "Discourse on Free Will" was in response to Luther's doctrine, but it was defending the Catholic Church's doctrine of free will. He most certainly was a Catholic.


 2008/10/25 12:17
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

I got your PM of this post, but would like to respond here.

First off, in regards to Erasmus. I don't want to argue over whether or not he was a Catholic. I would encourage you to read his biography: [url=http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/more-dear-erasmus.html]My Dear Erasmus: The Forgotten Reformer[/url]. It clearly shows his relationship with Luther (which although they were "friends" they disagreed on a lot of doctrine) and his relationship with the Catholic Church.

Second, I agree with all the verses you posted about the inspiration and preservation of God's Word. Where we disagree is how and in what form it was preserved. You believe it was only preserved in the KJV, I don't. To clarify, I do not except all modern translations, but I don't reject all of them either.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/10/26 16:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The history of the transmission of the biblical text is really a hypothesis. We are searching for a 'best fit' explanation to the historical evidence which now exists. Robinson's hypothesis seems very reasonable to me but it is important to note that he is NOT supporting the Textus Receptus but IS supporting the Byzantine Textform.

A Greek text created by Robinson and Pierpoint is available at a great price from Amazon... [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0759800774]The New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform 2005[/url]. For those who are into this kind of thing he provides the textual variants from the NA27 and USB4 modern critical texts in footnotes. He also provides the significant Byzantine variations in marginal notes. This is a very valuable tool and the volume also contains some 'essays' from Robinson in which he sets out very clearly his transmission hypothesis.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/10/27 10:52Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Waltern wrote

Quote:
However, if you do not believe God, and that He has the power to preserve His Word forever, then go out and get a newer version.

The current world population is about 6.7 billion. Ethnologue, a publication by SIL International (a Christian organisation) estimates that 508m people speak English, that is 8.7% of the world population. Another typical estimate is 1 billion speak English, that is 15%, and the highest estimate is 1.8 billion or 27% of the world population speak English. Taking the best estimate, what hope do you have for the other 73% of the world's population who cannot read the KJV?

Mike

 2008/10/28 12:26Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4584


 Re:

Hi waltern...

Quote:
The meaning of words in the King James are all frozen in time- all you need is the 1828 Dictionary to help. Also, the Strongs Exhaustive Concordance will be a help too. It can only be used with the King James Bible, and provides the exact meaning of all the Hebrew words in the Old Testament and the Greek words in the New Testament. You don't need to attend Bible College, you don't need formal training, all you need to do is to unplug your television, and spend your time feasting on God's Word!

So we also need to purchase the 1828 edition of a dictionary (and possibly, a Strong's Concordance) so we can understand the language of the Bible? Isn't this exactly the OPPOSITE of the intent of the translators as recorded in their Preface to the KJV? The translators of the KJV indicated that they wanted a version of the Scriptures for which men didn't have to turn to another source (priest, Church leadership, etc...) to [i]interpret[/i] or [i]augment[/i] their understanding of passages -- because the new, "modern" version would be in the "vulgar" ("common") language understood by men.

Something else: I have often read/heard many of these threads over the years at SermonIndex and in books, magazines, tracts and sermons. Yet I seldom have ever come across an individual who presents BOTH SIDES of the argument. Typically, you find one who presents an extreme view of one side (KJV in the ONLY true Word of God), one side of the source material debate (for which there is a preference) or the opposite side of the debate in which most modern scholars prefer the other source texts. Like our brother indicated, more than 73% of the world does NOT speak English -- and much less understand the vernacular of early 17th Century English. My wife has difficulty with the KJV words, and most dictionaries are not very helpful (since the words have changed meaning). Yet she earned a teaching degree and a set of graduate degrees in Spanish and ESL (English Second Language) Education. It is alarming to see individuals push for readers to need/utilize/purchase outside sources just to understand a single translation of the Word of God (although that would be a great reason to do so).

Me? I generally see myself as seeing both sides. I understand the arguments regarding the KJV (a bad argument, in my view), a belief in the superiority of the sources used for the KJV and other older texts (a much better argument) and the argument for the superiority of the other sources used for versions like the NIV. My ultimate conclusion is that I cannot, after much prayer, study and fasting, cannot ascertain the ultimate validity of the arguments for either sets of source texts. This is why my conclusion is that the KJV is a good and faithful (albeit [u]imperfect[/u] -- as its translators indicated) translation from its sets of sources AND the NIV is a good and faithful (and albeit [u]imperfect[/u] -- as its translators also indicated) translation from its sets of sources. Most of the time, I consult multiple sources of the same passage. I read it with the KJV. I read it with the NASB. I read it with the NIV. I even read it in Spanish. That is why I am so grateful for a website like [url=http://www.biblegateway.com]BibleGateway[/url] and its inclusion of many versions of the Bible in mulitiple languages. More importantly: I also urge those who read the Word of God to PRAY when they read it.

When I first met the Lord, I used to change the sign at the Church that I attended. I would find some great quotes that I would put on it every other week. Once I included these words on the sign (although I don't know if I read it somewhere or came up with it myself): [b]Many people read the Bible, but only a few speak with the Author.[/b] If we would pray when we read, cannot the Holy Spirit lead us and guide us into ALL truth? After all, Jesus is the Living and perfect Word of God.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/10/28 13:36Profile
paulamicela
Member



Joined: 2008/6/12
Posts: 40


 Re:

It is amazing how much people keep debating this issue.


_________________
Paul W. Lamicela

 2008/10/28 15:09Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Amen!

Just like Calvinism vs. Arminianism.... the quote from Job comes to mind:
Job 6:25 (KJV) 25How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?


Job 6:25 (ESV) 25 How forceful are upright words! But what does reproof from you reprove?


Job 6:25 (NKJV) 25 How forceful are right words! But what does your arguing prove?


Regardless of what English version you read, you always have a middle man between you and the original(s}. Take enough basic Greek and go to a museum and study for yourself...
or more importantly as Mark Twain said, "it is not what I do not know from the Bible that worries me, but what I do know that scares me (paraphrase)".

Clint:-)


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2008/10/28 18:00Profile





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