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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

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 Re:

Just the very fact that so much time is spent debating tongues shows that this is out of balance. Why dont we spend this much time arguing about the gift "helps"... or "giving"?

People come here and claim they spent days on their knees praying for the gift of tongues. When was the last time anyone spent days on their knees praying for the gift of "hospitality"? Why dont we see these are miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Y'all think I'm saying that I dont think tongues is important (which isn't true)... but y'all proove to me that you think tongues is more important than the other gifts.

As far as [b]1 Cor 14:1[/b] [i](Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...)[/i] is concerned... it says to desire spiritual gifts, but it does not say or imply that you get specific gifts [b]because[/b] you desire them. Thats pretty close to WOF doctrine... "blab it and grab it" heresy.

Scripture is blatently clear that GOD gives the gifts, and GOD does so according to HIS will and purposes... and NOT ours.

My 14 yr old son may desire a .357 Magnum. Thats a good desire, and the Constitution protects his right as an American to have one if he wants one... but I say when he's mature enough to have one. As long as he is submitted to me as his father (i.e. living in my house) it is ME who decides when and if his desire is fulfilled... according to MY plans and purposes, NOT his.

(In the meantime, I let him shoot mine under my supervision)

I love you guys... dont think I'm mad. I'm just just trying to get you to think.

Krispy

 2008/11/7 7:54
A-Run
Member



Joined: 2008/9/8
Posts: 56
India

 Re:

Quote:
Krispy wrote: Why dont we spend this much time arguing about the gift "helps"... or "giving"?



It's true. I think these are the two 'gifts' that are greatly overlooked by many believers.

I've been more and more thinking of the lack of 'giving' in my own life.

I've seen many people who are more taken up with the gifts which are more popular rather than seeking to balance the body of Christ by seeking the gifts of 'Helps' and 'Giving' etc...


_________________
Arun

 2008/11/7 8:37Profile









 Re:

It's like the gift of hospitality... when was the last time some of you here opened your home up to some homeless guy? Or in your church... do you make visitors feel welcome? While you're worshipping and praising and shouting in tongues do you also notice the pregnant young woman in the back who is trying to go unnoticed... but desperately wants God's acceptance? She's considering an abortion and is seeking for someone to talk her out of it and give her a reason not to. But she goes ignored because we're too busy "worshipping".

I tell you this... taking her under your wing and guiding her to the Lord, and helping her make the right choice... and maybe taking her into your home [b]IS[/b] worship!

Some Sundays our house church doesnt meet because people are out of town, or have sick kids... whatever the situation may be. So my wife and I pack up the kids and visit different churches. I've never met colder people than church people. Doesn't matter if it's a fundamental church or a Pentecostal church... smiles at the door, but NO ONE talks you.

Everyone can speak in tongues till they're blue in the face... but for the most part, in most churches... visitors feel out of place and not welcome.

Everyone wants a gift that "edifies" themselves, but ignore the gifts that edify others. This is what is meant by Paul when he says desire the better gifts.

But we dont. We're fleshly and selfish and we want the gifts that make us appear spiritual.

Tongues has a place in the church, and I believe in tongues (a little differently than the folks I'm talking with on this thread). But I believe I'd rather never speak one syllable in tongues if it means I dont have any gifts that edify others, and esteem others above myself.

Krispy

 2008/11/7 8:46
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Quote:
Just the very fact that so much time is spent debating tongues shows that this is out of balance. Why dont we spend this much time arguing about the gift "helps"... or "giving"?



Because "helps" or "giving" isn't the topic of this thread! We could start a new thread on those! I would take part in it as well! LOL

But please know, I'm not arguing over whether or not Krispy (or anyone else for that matter) should speak in tongues! I, personally, entered this discussion because it was stated that tongues was the least of all the gifts.

Quote:
Y'all think I'm saying that I dont think tongues is important (which isn't true)... but y'all prove to me that you think tongues is more important than the other gifts.(emphasis by Lysa)



(I don't think BlazedbyGod was trying and) I know for sure that I wasn't trying to prove that tongues is MORE important than the other gifts but as equal and definitely NOT the "least" of all the gifts as previously stated.

Quote:
As far as 1 Cor 14:1 (Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...) is concerned... it says to desire spiritual gifts, but it does not say or imply that you get specific gifts because you desire them. Thats pretty close to WOF doctrine... "blab it and grab it" heresy.



God forbid I should put words in your mouth!! :) But what exactly does the Bible mean by "desire spiritual gifts" if that's NOT what the Bible means.... to desire them? [dictionary.com says desire means to wish for, or long for, to crave, to want, and request.]

And also would you please provide the verse that tells us that even though we are instructed to desire them we won't get what we "desire?" [And by the way, I DO NOT BELIEVE in WOF doctrine in any way, shape or form.] I just want to know why "desire" doesn't mean desire anymore.

I agree with you that I love you guys in the love of Christ as well. I really would like to know your heart, I'm not out rightly trying to be disagreeable here!

Thank you


_________________
Lisa

 2008/11/7 10:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And also would you please provide the verse that tells us that even though we are instructed to desire them we won't get what we "desire?" [And by the way, I DO NOT BELIEVE in WOF doctrine in any way, shape or form.] I just want to know why "desire" doesn't mean desire anymore.



I already did yesterday. Here it is again:

[b]1 Corinthians 12:11[/b] [i]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as [b]he[/b] will.[/i]

The [b]Spirit[/b] decides who gets what gifts according to HIS will. Period. Not according to how much we desire a gift.

When Paul was saying "Do all teach? Do all speak in tongues?" he was [b]not[/b] making a case that believers don't desire the gifts enough so they dont all get them all... you can't even come close to getting that from the context.

He was making the case that the [b]Holy Spirit[/b] gives the gifts unto each one according to [b]HIS[/b] will... not man's. According to [b]HIS[/b] plan, not mine.

Why do you think Paul went thru the whole discussion about many parts making up a body? Yes, tongues is important as are [b]all[/b] the gifts. But just as not all are given the gift of teaching, not all are given the gift of tongues. Pauls says that clearly. There is no other way to read chapter 12 without butchering it.

Yes, we should desire [b]spiritual gifts[/b]. Why wouldnt we? But if we were all gifted as a teacher what good would that do in the inner workings of a church? We cant all be eyes... we cant all be hands... etc.

Desire spiritual gifts, absolutely. But Paul also ends chapter 12 and seguays into chapter 13 with "Desire the [b]best gifts[/b] [i](meaning not all are the "best" gifts!).[/i] And now I will show you a more excellent way..."

He sounds like Bill and Ted... a more excellent way...

What is the more excellent way? Love. What giftings focus on love? Helps... Hospitality... Giving... Evangelism... etc etc... the gifts that dont get discussed much, at least not as much as the gifts that get us noticed by those around us.

Krispy

 2008/11/7 11:38
jerryaustin1
Member



Joined: 2008/9/2
Posts: 60
Louisiana

 Re:

I am not aking whether Christians who are not baptized with the Holy Ghost will to heaven or not, but if they will go in the rapture. There are those (NOT I) who believe that they who are sanctified and/or filled with the Holy Ghost are going in the rapture and the Christians who are not will go through the tribulation.


_________________
Jerry Austin

 2008/11/7 13:26Profile









 Re:

There are no Christians who have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit and who do not have the Holy Spirit living in them. Period.

If you do not have the Spirit living within you... you are not saved. Thats scripture.

Those who are telling you that only those who have had the Pentecostal version of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit will go in the pre-trib rapture (if there even will be a pre-trib rapture) are full of... uhmm... manure. There is nothing in scripture to support that at all.

I've never heard of that before. It sounds to me that it is nothing more than a heretical doctrine made up by folks who think themselves more spiritual than other Christians because they might speak in tongues. It's an immature thing to entertain such a notion.

There are not two classes of Christians. You're either saved and bound for heaven (either via death or rapture)... or you're not. There are no partially saved people, and there are no saved people who are favored more by God over another.

Period.

The great general, Robert E. Lee, once knelt at the alter in a church next to a black gentleman... and someone asked him why he would do that... and his answer was "The ground is level at the foot of the cross".

Krispy

 2008/11/7 13:50
jerryaustin1
Member



Joined: 2008/9/2
Posts: 60
Louisiana

 Re: Can we see not see?

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

We would have to agree that the baptism of the Holy Ghost was separate from their conversion.


_________________
Jerry Austin

 2008/11/7 13:59Profile
jerryaustin1
Member



Joined: 2008/9/2
Posts: 60
Louisiana

 Re: I am not claiming to hold the belief of Oly Holy Ghost baptized christian being t

I am not claiming to hold the belief of only Holy Ghost baptized christian being the only ines going in the rapture.


_________________
Jerry Austin

 2008/11/7 14:01Profile









 Re:

Jerry... in the case you're citing there were Jews present. Scripture makes it clear that tongues were a sign to the Jews... as proof, if you will, that what the Apostles were preaching was true.

You can not take this one instance at the beginning of the church and apply it across the board. Thats bad exegesis.

However, if you go back and read my posts you will see that I definately believe in a "second blessing" or "sanctification"... or whatever you want to term it. Once again people are putting words in my mouth, or thinking that I'm saying something I'm not.

But scripture is clear... if you're saved you have the Holy Spirit. Also, in some of the cases in Acts the "disciples" were disciples of John the Baptist... and had not heard of the Holy Spirit because they had not heard the entirety of the gospel.

Krispy

 2008/11/7 14:04





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