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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

IOW = In Other Words
8-)

 2008/8/28 21:41Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

i do not believe the bible anywhere states that Jesus' death was anything other than physical. it also seems to imply, by preaching that He did die spiritually to make Him who knew no sin to become anathema [ accursed ] and that is not what cor 5: 21 is saying. i think this messes with the atonement. the atonement is the paramount , most needed event in history and in all of heaven and earth. to show forth Gods great love for us and the just desert of punishment for sin. for Jesus to have suffered the amount we were supposed to would be for him to still be in hell . Jesus satisfied God by going to the cross and on the cross ,, IT WAS FINISHED " not in the belly of the earth, not in hades. Jesus told the thief He would be with him that day in paradise not in hell somewhere. jimp do you know of any material or books that address this other than the ones i have mentioned . Christians that i love here in tulsa ok. need help in seeing this.i am glad that yo see it is nonsence ... i am asking for anyone to show me undeniably that Jesus , according to scripture , died spiritually and had to wrestle the keys of hell and death from the devil in hell somewhere for us to be justified.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/8/28 21:54Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

hello , logic i appreciate your input, the thing that i am searching for is more info on solidifying my position further , from the scriptures, that for Jesus to have died Spiritually would go against much of what Jesus said of Himself and go against much of what paul and others taught of the atonement . the atonement is a covering , an exchange, it is not according to the law of sin , meaning it was not an eye for an eye , or in this case a spirit that was alive to become dead { Jesus']so that ours that was dead to god could became alive . this is what the spiritual death thing teaches , andd it does not add up. and through all my studies , i know the bible fits all of our nature and relations it fits perfectly with all , and all.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/8/28 22:05Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3588
Louisiana

 Re:

This teaching concerning Jesus dying spiritually is a heresy.

This teaching says that Jesus in order to redeem us took the nature of satan, went to hell, and was born again in hell. It takes away from the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Jesus was made to be sin in His soul, but His spirit remained pure and holy. When Jesus died He comitted His spirit to the Father. This JDS teaching says that the Father didn't receive Jesus because He was made sin, so He had to suffer in hell for us. Jesus suffered on the cross for us, and not in hell.

Mike


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Mike

 2008/8/29 0:35Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

hello , abideinHim , i do believe this is gross heresy. i believe that this goes a lot deeper into heresy than most realise. i am searching for more info on the truth and heart of this false teaching . i have only found one book on this and it is " the born again jesus of the word of faith teaching" . it is written by judith matta. it is very informative and also , letusreason.org , is great on teaching and sharing the truth. i am wanting to find all i can to refute unquestionable this heresy . i live in tulsa, ok. and we have so many that sperate themselves from all who do not agree with them on this line. those who believe that jesus died spiritually , act as if we who do not believe this, are crazy, and do not know much. i was hoping to be led to some sermons and teachings or more books adressing the truth on this matter and the motive behind propagating this born again jesus, that died spiritually. i personally think that this denies the deity of Jesus, and makes the jesus they speak of a false one with no real atoning value for sin.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/8/29 13:52Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

AbideinHim wrote:
This teaching concerning Jesus dying spiritually is a heresy.

This teaching says that Jesus in order to redeem us took the nature of satan, went to hell, and was born again in hell. It takes away from the finished work of Christ on the cross.

Jesus was made to be sin in His soul, but His spirit remained pure and holy. When Jesus died He comitted His spirit to the Father. This JDS teaching says that the Father didn't receive Jesus because He was made sin, so He had to suffer in hell for us. Jesus suffered on the cross for us, and not in hell.

Mike



When Jesus became sin-he died spiritually. How could God forsake him if his spirit was still pure and Holy? Do we forget that scripture says he bore our sins " IN HIS BODY"-what may I ask is inside of the body?

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins IN HIS OWN BODY on the tree,

I asked earlier-when Adam (who was sinless, and in sinless state) took and ate from the tree-God declared he would die "IN" that same day-my question is did Adam die "IN" the day-or some hundreds of years later?

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for [b]in the day[/b] that thou eatest thereof [b]thou shalt surely die[/b]

Gen 5:5 And all the [b]days[/b] that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: [b]and he died.[/b]

Did Adam die that day he took from the tree? or did Adam die hundreds of years later after he ate from the tree?

To teach that Christ diedy spiritually, is NOT heresy, it is scriptural. His death was not ONLY physical, and here is a scripture:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the [b]Lamb slain from the foundation of the world[/b].

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world-was that spiritually or physically? Was not the Lamb slain in eternity from the foundation of the world only to when the "fullness of time came" to be carried out physically in the earth?

Gal 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,...

1 Peter 1:19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,...

Tell me, how was the Lamb slain "from the foundation of the world"?

Abideinhim, you said : " Jesus was made to be sin in his soul.

People forget that Jesus not ONLY "bore/took OUR sins"-but he himself BECAME SIN. 2 Cor 5:21For he hath [b]made him TO BE sin for us[/b], who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God IN HIM. 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins IN his own body ON the tree,... He bore OUR sins IN his body, but he himself had also become sin FOR US.

1 Peter 2:24-Bore our sins IN HIS BODY
1 Peter 2:24-ON the cross

He bore our sins IN his body -ON the cross.

The suffering that Jesus suffered for us, was what he beared on the cross, and AFTER that in Hell-drinking the full cup of God's wrath!

Christ himself, was not afraid of the cross-as to many men have gone to the cross since Christ-to include Peter his own apostle-and Peter was crucified upside down.We are even told to carry our crosses. It was the wrath of God that Christ prayed, that if possible "be removed"-NOT THE CROSS.

Luke 22: 41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, [b]remove this CUP from me[/b]: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

He said "remove this cup"-not remove this cross. And the cup, as displayed in Revelation-is the wrath of God poured out without mixture.

Rev 14:10The same [b]shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation[/b]; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And besides, from what I have seen in this thread, the people who are against the teaching of Jesus dying spiritually, seem to also have a belief that Jesus did not "go to hell"-but what does the Holy Writ say:

Eph 4:8 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that [b]he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?[/b] 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Again, Abideinhim, you said: Jesus was made to be sin in His soul....

Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils [b]the breath of life; and man became a living soul[/b].

Man is a living soul: And the living soul consists of "the breathe of life"-which is the spirit. Without the "breathe of life" (the spirit) man is not a LIVING soul. Paul in 1 Cor 15 says the last adam was a "quickening spirit".

If Christ poured OUT his soul; (which he did do)-inside of the soul is the breath of life(the spirit) It was the breathe of life that enacted the soul to be living.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Also, it is no mere coincedence that Christ gives the sign of Jonah as a sign of himself. While yes many people know that Jonah was in the "whale's belly"-many people also forget that Jonah does in fact make this statement as well, which is another fascinating reason as to why Christ would refer this to himself:

Jonah 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; [b]out of the belly of HELL cried I[/b], and thou heardest my voice.

In Matt 12:40 when Jesus said HEART of the earth, he was not merely/only refering to the grave dug a little bit under the earth-he was referring to hell itself. A common grave is not the HEART of the earth.

Jonah was thrown in the sea and he went WAY down into that sea-so far down that the "weeds wrapped round about my head" (Jonah 2:5) then went INTO the mouth of the whale, to only be swallowed further INTO the BELLY of the whale-and this is why Jesus uses the phrase " heart of the earth-because he was referring just exactly how deep, how far he himself would be going INTO the heart of the earth. Not just merely being dug 6 feet under the ground.


 2008/8/29 14:03Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:

When Jesus became sin-he died spiritually.

Jesus never became sin.
The verse your thginking of means that Jesus became a sin offering.
(1) That he was literally sin in the abstract, or sin as such. No one can pretend this. The expression must be, therefore, in some sense, figurative. Nor,
(2) Can it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor,
(3) Can it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the Law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings.
(Barnes)

 2008/8/29 16:52Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


IOW, if one is hostle toward God, he is spiritualy dead.


Indeed, somebody who is hostile towards God is spiritually dead. However, it is my contention that one cannot be spiritually dead without being hostile towards God. So, to assert that Jesus was spiritually dead is to assert that He was at war with God in His spirit. And if this were the case, then Jesus Christ was no longer the just dying for the unjust, rather, he was simply another of many who were died and were unjust.


IOW, the enmity with God causes the severed relationship.


Good trees produce good fruit, and bad trees produce bad fruit. It is out of the heart that fornications, thefts, murders, etc. come. It's a heart issue before it is ever an outward action, never the other way around.


Isn't "sin" an action as you just said?


Sinful actions are the manifestation of sinfulness-- a state of being.


What is "sin & death"?
Did you get that from Rom 8:2?


"Sin" and "death" are concepts traced all throughout the book of Romans. Sin is both an inward dispostion/state of being and outward action. Likewise, death is a state of being and outward action. One sins because they are born a sinner, and one is born a sinner because of the death that works in all creation, the result of Adam's fall as the head of all things, causing the corrpution of everything God created as good. Death came through sin, and sin reigns through death. It's a reciprocal relationship where both feed off eachother. These are the "laws" (principles) under which the old fallen creation operate.

However, Christ "violated" these "laws" which work in the old creation. He who knew no sin tasted death for us all. A just man died the death due only to a criminal in God's court. Thus, through His voluntary act, the old order which we were subjected to from conception was toppled. Thus, though we were sinners who sinned, and were destined to death and everlasting punishment, because of Christ's work, we have come to experience eternal life in place of the death that we once knew. And even though our bodies are still subject to die being part of the old order, we one day will see the changing of these bodies through the resurrection. Our death, like Christ's, will not be permanent.


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Jimmy H

 2008/8/29 17:56Profile
clintstone
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Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

the only scriptures you give here say in His body. Jesus in john 6:51 says" the bread which i give is My flesh ,which i shall give for the life of the world." isaiah 53:6 says " the lord the the iniquity of us all on Him . not in Him. in hebrews 10:20 the vei that was torn was His flesh. in 1 cor 12:3 paulwarns that no man can call Jesus accursed { anathema ]in the greek which means to become unredeemed. in gal3:14 when Jesus became a curse for us , the word katara from the greek root word kata and the root ara which means impreciated. as other scriptures sat that the father looked upon Jesus as He would have us. while He was on the cross shedding His blood and with rent flesh.if Christ ....became sin... then Jesus had to have been anathema [accursed] ,which is exactly what copeland and hagin and kenyon and all who believe thier report, are saying. 2cor 5:21 should be translated ; " he made Him who knew no sin, a sin offering for us." in the old testament Jesus was always represented as on offering for sin , this fit with all of scripture of Jesus being God in and also of God justification in now being able to forgive our sins becuase of the sinless sin offering, that is only Jesus' flesh and Jesus' blood. the life is in the blood and hebrews says He gave His blood through an eternal spirit . that eternal Spirit was Jesus' spirit. i cannot find where Jesus had 2 spirits in scripture.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/8/29 20:44Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

For Jesus to have died Spiritually, then that would mean that God died Spiritually, also.
He didn't die Spiritually.
It says in John 10:30.I and My Father are one.

Just get in touch with Brother Clendenen in Beumont, TX. He is over the School of Christ.
He will tell you where to find what you are looking for.
I believe he deals with this in his dvd "Conquered by Light."
God Bless you, Brother Clint, hope you find out more info on this.
Nellie

 2008/8/29 20:50Profile





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