Logic wrote:I want to add to something I said earlier.Jesus was "Perfected", "Completed" [b]as a perfect human[/b] through obedience to His Father.To to become divine.[b]Heb 10:14[/b] [color=990000]by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified[/color]After Christ was deemed a "perfect Man" through His sufferings & obedience to His Father, He then "perfected us" who are set apart by/in/through/according to faith with repentance.After Christ is deem a perfect man, we are deem perfect men.
Nice pun :-P God knows that sole worship of Him is the best thing for the benefit of man.God knows that if man was autonomous it would be the end of him, as we all know from experience.If God was an true egomaniac He would be selfish and self-centered, but the contrary, His thoughts are toward and His intentions are sacrificially for our benefit.
Ormly wrote:RE: Tom,Though I believe most all you say, you nevertheless say enough that would confuse anyone trying to connect the dots. God can't die, ergo, God wasn't on the cross. Don't call that comment heretical. It's not arguable. Consider you can't make distinctions running with your present theology while dismissing anything that might cause you to think.So quit, RIGHT NOW, with the accusations. I am a Christian and I have no axe to grind. If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.Keep in mind, this is all about God's original intention for Adam. Why is it Tom, that Jesus needed to obey His Father? Answer that, please. Answer: Jesus was the Son of God, and the Son of man. To be the Son of Man, He also had to overcome by Faith. ....... Divide and conquer? I think not. Jesus said, "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they grind them, and vomit them back at your feet." This is that. I am not saying you are a swine. But the principle is there. In the face of reason, and much compassion and patience, you adamantly defy all careful truth streaming your way, and gnash , and grind, and smugly assert your right to disown the Bible as our only compass, and banner of fellowship. To answer your question, yes, I am born from above, as I was baptized in the Holy Spirit poured out within me, in the name of Jesus, and by Him. But , Oh...that would make Him God, wouldn't it? My accusations will be kept for bigger fish, if you don't mind. The brethren and sisters here have exposed enough for me, to assure me that you are an unbeliever, and you may be a God hater; I hope not. I am taking your advice, and quitting, right now. I hope you still have a conscience left, that can hear truth when He comes to you. Thank you for your post and thread though. This has worked out unto the glory of God, as those approved of God have been manifest to stand, and I have been proud to witness the patience shown you, in spite of yourself. Jesus is Lord, just as he appeared to Abraham! Tom
If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.
I dont know Ormly but maybe he didnt explain himself to well. Now we all know that Jesus the man is God manifest in the flesh.We know also that Jesus said God is Spirit. We know that Jesus is God and Man, and I cant speak for Ormly but hopefully he believes this also.We know that Jesus as very God emptied himself and became man to die as a man on the cross. The Word is God and did die as a man but we know that God (as Spirit) can never die. Maybe he was saying the spirit of God didnt die on the cross but only God the man. We know that Jesus gave up His Spirit to the Father and died as a man.Even us when we die as a man our spirit is released from our body and will keep on existing either in heaven or in hell but want have a body again until the resurrection.I dont quite follow Ormly when he talks about divinity because we shouldnt think that we will be in the Godhead. We will have the divine nature and be a glorified man but we will not be deity. It would be heresy to think such.Still a cause for concern though because I really dont quite follow Ormly.I pray that he will clear himself in this matter.Blessings to all!
Ormly said:
What we can see from scripture is...supportive that Adam was to be what Jesus became, i.e., a Divine-Human representative in the Godhead
_________________Paul Frederick West
Josef_Urban wrote:Quote:If you want to discuss using the scriptures, that's find. You might begin by citing relevant ones instead of those you have posted, that aren't. . . All quoting the writers speaking of Jesus AFTER the fact of the cross and glorification. Again, make better distinctions.Quote:How's this:[i][b]Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/b][/i]I already quoted that one. Pay attention. "Thou shalt call His Name Emanuel . .." Remember?Quote:Dear sermonindex brethren, this Ormly fellow is deceived and teaching damnable doctrine. Let us pray for him that his eyes be opened. I would admonish everyone to take serious caution when dealing with him and to seriously disregard any additional "insights" and "revelations" he has into the Scriptures on any subject, for a blind man can't see anything. He is propagating strange doctrine and if so wrong about such fundamental issues, no doubt other things must be off too, for if the foundations be destroyed, neither can the house stand. To deny that the Lord Jesus was ALWAYS divine,I didn't say that either. I didn't deny He wasn't always divine. I qualified it. I made distinctions. You aren't reading, or don't want to.Quote: and to say that He wasn't God in the flesh when he was hanged upon that old Cross when that blessed Emmanuel became a curse in our stead, is to deny the Gospel. For if He wasn't fully divine, His blood was no better than the blood of any other man, or bull, or goat. No, Adam could not "attain" divinity and be the Savior of the world, and Jesus Christ was the Word as God who took on flesh, fully God yet fully man, who from eternity past was predestined to redeem fallen man in the fullness of time.What is strange is because you aren't reading me correctly and yet accuse.You say the blood of Jesus needed to be divine for man to be forgiven. That isn't so. Only sinless blood was needed. Jesus was sinless. He qualified. The only way He could be sinless was to first start out that way and then protect His sinlessness. Since creation was over, only being born of the Father/Holy Ghost could accomplish His beginnings. . . Normal man entering the world from the outside to redeem fallen mankind for the Father. Doesn't that also speak of the new birth of a believer? Isn't that what the newborn are given to be, to protect and to do? Get that part correct first then perhaps a few other things may fall into place. Get understanding.Whose next . . .
How's this:[i][b]Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/b][/i]
Dear sermonindex brethren, this Ormly fellow is deceived and teaching damnable doctrine. Let us pray for him that his eyes be opened. I would admonish everyone to take serious caution when dealing with him and to seriously disregard any additional "insights" and "revelations" he has into the Scriptures on any subject, for a blind man can't see anything. He is propagating strange doctrine and if so wrong about such fundamental issues, no doubt other things must be off too, for if the foundations be destroyed, neither can the house stand. To deny that the Lord Jesus was ALWAYS divine,
and to say that He wasn't God in the flesh when he was hanged upon that old Cross when that blessed Emmanuel became a curse in our stead, is to deny the Gospel. For if He wasn't fully divine, His blood was no better than the blood of any other man, or bull, or goat. No, Adam could not "attain" divinity and be the Savior of the world, and Jesus Christ was the Word as God who took on flesh, fully God yet fully man, who from eternity past was predestined to redeem fallen man in the fullness of time.
[b]
rbanks wrote:I dont know Ormly but maybe he didnt explain himself to well.
Now we all know that Jesus the man is God manifest in the flesh.
We know also that Jesus said God is Spirit. We know that Jesus is God and Man, and I cant speak for Ormly but hopefully he believes this also.
We know that Jesus as very God emptied himself and became man to die as a man on the cross. The Word is God and did die as a man but we know that God (as Spirit) can never die. Maybe he was saying the spirit of God didnt die on the cross but only God the man. We know that Jesus gave up His Spirit to the Father and died as a man.
Even us when we die as a man our spirit is released from our body and will keep on existing either in heaven or in hell but wont have a body again until the resurrection.
I dont quite follow Ormly when he talks about divinity because we shouldnt think that we will be in the Godhead. We will have the divine nature and be a glorified man but we will not be deity. It would be heresy to think such.
Still a cause for concern though because I really dont quite follow Ormly.
PaulWest wrote:Ormly said:Quote:What we can see from scripture is...supportive that Adam was to be what Jesus became, i.e., a Divine-Human representative in the GodheadBehold the reason for concocting this thread: the propagation of the abovementioned teaching. The intro question poised was merely the springboard to set the weapon's sights downfield. As Ron Bailey once said, such people are not looking for discussions, but surrenders.
Ormly said,You say the blood of Jesus needed to be divine for man to be forgiven. That isn't so. Only sinless blood was needed. Jesus was sinless. Whose next . . . I will. Acts 20:28- Be shepards of the church of God which He bought with His own blood. ( You know, I was about to end it there but verse 29 is very timely and applicable.... I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from among your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.