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 Re: zanazac


"Right now I was just wondering who thought what, on the topic? "Pattybetta", original post

1] The post is a general topic, znc, not just about the relevance of tongues today.

2] It is a thread, znc, which means that it develops like a conversation. You respond, not dictate. If you were not intending to be involved, why are you?

3]This is a revival forum where ideas are DISCUSSED. It is not a chat room, where everything IS about you. This may come as a surprise to you, but when responding, you never came into my mind, no not once. When I use the term "you", I refer to the individual, as a whole, in defining my discernment on a spiritual issue.

4] You accused me of directing my posts at fallen Pentecostals. Perhaps 10% of the two were , to point out that character and holiness are paramount in our walk, not any gift. I do not believe you read my posts, or you were offended, and read them in the light that I was attacking you.

As far as whether some believe that speaking in tongues "proves something", it is absolutely a correct statement. Many do, and if you read the thread, and considered what OTHER people said, we were talking about the "sign" of tongues, as EVIDENCE of being Baptized in the Spirit.


I am still in wonder about how you could conclude that I was inferring that the gift of tongues could cause "Bad Behavior." Every idea is an attack, isn't it? God Forbid! Of course not! The flesh unchecked causes bad behavior.

Again, you missed the forest because of all those trees.I wasn't attacking Pentecostalism. I am a pentecostal, except that the word connotes a denominational affiliation today, and that , I am not. I would bet a nickle that I speak with tongues more than you all. I am a Spirit filled believer, who happens to have the graces of tongues, that God has given me, to better worship Him, in prayer, and in Praise. It is also a very personal and private thing, as our prayer life is commanded to be.


My contribution to this thread, and ideas, are that no gift is a validation of your status with God. By comparison, I assessed the obvious facts of Character, or lack there of, in gifted people, and showed and use Scripture, and Biblical example, to say that fruit matters....Love and merciful lives...not gifted ones. It so happens that tongues are the load stone of debate and validation on this issue. We are talking about tongues, remember?


Christians go to Heaven, ZNC, not denominations, and yes, there are wolves and deceivers, and carnal people in and out of every denomination. God looks at the Character of Himself in his sons, to receive them or, alas , to reject them as not being one of His own.


So, it is very, very important to realize this, and to live your life accordingly. Just because you speak in tongues, does NOT make you HOLY. It is simply a tool that may help. Bearing your cross, denying yourself, and following Jesus is the thing that creates a Holy life.


One word of advice, for your sake. Be edifying, using the bible, and don't filter things to yourself as confrontation. It is a forum about issues and biblical ideas, and a lot of people will and do disagree, This is not a venue to attack, or it is not a venue for you to defend yourself, and your ideas, but to discuss them, that others may be edified.


Otherwise, you will be frustrated, and frustrate others, when you post. Listen, and try to understand, and be loving.


I have failed here, also, and am learning to drink my own medicine. brother Tom

 2008/8/15 7:31
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1530
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Guys/Girls

I think some of you think is differently from me.

The word "carnal" comes from the Latin word for flesh. In Romans viii, and in Gal. v., we are taught that the flesh and the Spirit of God are the two opposing powers by which we are dominated or ruled, and we are taught that a true believer may allow himself to be ruled by the flesh. That is what Paul writes to the Corinthians. In the 3rd chapter, the first four verses, he says, four times to them, "You are carnal, and not spiritual." And just so a believer can allow the flesh to have so much power over him that becomes "carnal." Every object is named according to its most prominent characteristic.

If anyone gives way, as the Corinthians did, to strife, temper, division, and envy, he is a carnal Christian. He is a Christian, but a carnal one. But if he gives himself over entirely to the Holy Spirit so that He (the Holy Spirit) can deliver from the temper, the envy, and the strife, by breathing a heavenly disposition; and can mortify the deeds of the body; then God's Word calls him a "spiritual" man
--------------------------------------------

Is there anyone here reading this thread that can say the have dealt with all the works of the flesh (Carnality, Sin)in there life.

------------------------------------------

Does it not say in the word

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is becomes guilty of all.

By setting the standard that tounges are useless because of sin or carnality in your life you then have to apply this standard in all things you do. Which would include praying in our own language. By this standard then that would make these prayer useless as well.

Come on guys lets be real.

In Matthew 23, Jesus expressed his deep contempt for true religious hypocrites. Here are some of the charges he leveled against them:

They give out laws to others, but they do not live by them (vs. 3-4)

They love impressive, public religious displays, and being referred to with religious titles (vs. 5-12)

They win converts to their own religion, but not to God (vs. 13-15)

They re-interpret their own laws in order to suit their own purpose (vs. 16-22)

They emphasize minuscule religious details, yet ignore the most important truths (vs. 23-24)

They keep the outward appearance clean, while leaving the inside corrupt(vs.25-28)

They deny their own sinfulness (vs. 29-36)

There is not one of us good enough but thank God that he us sent his Son.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/8/15 7:40Profile
zenozac
Member



Joined: 2008/5/29
Posts: 8


 Re:

"You accused me of directing my posts at fallen Pentecostals. Perhaps 10% of the two were , to point out that character and holiness are paramount in our walk, not any gift."
No Tom, I responded to your reply to me. Where you did spent the majority of your post pointing out "pentacostal leaders" who had fallen. As you did for me, here is your reply post to me. Read this and tell me you did not spend the majority of this post, as I said, pointing out "pentacostals bad behavior".
All I said in response to you was that "Brothertom, I am in complete agreement with the list of names you present as people who have done much harm to the gospel. But we do not follow men, but Jesus Christ alone. How does their bad behavior affect our christianity? I am not quoting them. I am quoting Jesus.
Jesus said it in Mark 16:15-18"

"Paul has a point though. Because of TBN, and many high profile charismatic ministries over the last 30 years, the Pentecostals have been lumped together with them. The world in general holds these icons somewhere between a laughing stock and clownish caricatures of what the christian IS.

Kathryn Kuhlman , Jimmy Swaggart's debacle, "I have sinned!", and then more, and then "NO" to any correction, Tammy Faye's 50,000 dollar dog house, and those eyelashes, with 8 pounds of makeup and a Dolly Parton wig heaped high, while thieving millions....TBN's bizarre tuxedo's and candlelight hedonism bilking millions and millions, Benny Hinn, Copeland, Hagee, Creflo, Schuller, Hagin, Oral's plea for millions or else....he would die...and the neo-prophetic carnival of Bentley, the apostolic Alliance, Bob Jones, Paul Cain...and let us not forget the motivational humanists of the emerging church, and Olsteen, and 29 other mega-churches who embrace the Pagan prosperity gospel....but hold tongues up as the PROOF, that they are the ones, who hold the mighty Baptism in His holy Spirit. These are NATIONAL figures....ICONS of American Hedonism to most, masquerading in religious robes. Maybe this was the point that Paul West makes.
It is pointless to proceed. I could go on, and you know it. Of course, there are Pentecostals that are genuine , cross bearing and loving , fruit bearing disciples. I hope so, for I speak in tongues, in my private prayer life, every day of my life. The issue , I believe , is one of Godly character, and holiness....not the gifts.The gifts are given, SO that, we would bear Holy and Godly Fruit, not PROVE that we have attained a deeper experience with our Creator.

We are not to preach gifts, but Christ Crucified. It is not a badge of attainment. It is proof of nothing except you were graced with something you did not earn, that could help you attain intimacy and a holy relationship with your Maker. This is what Christ Jesus is pursuing in his Bride, and is attracted to; a Garment of white...of purity...of Holiness and Love emanating to Himself, His family, and a dying and dark world.

Tongues may help you on this journey; it may not....but the impression I get with many who focus upon it primarily, is that Pride has deceived them. "You shall know them by their fruits." Not Gifts, and especially a private, personal one like tongues, given to assist your Worship life. It is definitely not an endorsement of the Holy Spirit, proven by the Love in our lives alone."

In response to me here is one of the paragraphs you wrote "Speaking in tongues is utterly useless, if the fruit of your life is carnal...for all to see. It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers. 1st cor: 13.....sounding brass, clanging symbols..."it profits me nothing."
" It proves nothing, except possibly in the annals of your own mind and those of your peers."
Thought I would copy this part twice so you would see it. I accept that you were not talking about me specifically because you said so. But when you say "you and your peers" you should expect someone to think you meant "them and their peers" So perhaps you should just lose the attitude.

"One word of advice, for your sake. Be edifying, using the bible, and don't filter things to yourself as confrontation. It is a forum about issues and biblical ideas, and a lot of people will and do disagree, This is not a venue to attack, or it is not a venue for you to defend yourself, and your ideas, but to discuss them, that others may be edified."

Thanks for the advise, but that is what I thought I was doing. I made a simple post and have only been responding to your replys.
I made a statement that IF you were pointing out these fallen leaders to make a point about tongues that that would be outrageous. I did not say anything of the nature that you were saying that, Again I did not understand yours or Pauls reasons for posts pointing out "fallen pentacostal tongue talkers". It seems obvious that there are fallen leaders accross the board of christian beliefs.
It is you who has responded with offense in each of your replys. I did not mean to offend and have tried only to clarify my point. As it seemed you did not understand what I was trying to say. I am not a great writer and typing is difficult for me. So sometimes my point does not come through.
But here are some of you responses to me. And i really cannot take any offense from you as I do not even know you. And again on the type written post it is impossible to detect tone or trueky discern emotion.
"For the reason of your inability to see that, I have my original post below:"
This is a revival forum where ideas are DISCUSSED. It is not a chat room, where everything IS about you. This may come as a surprise to you, but when responding, you never came into my mind, no not once. When I use the term "you", I refer to the individual, as a whole, in defining my discernment on a spiritual issue."
"I am still in wonder about how you could conclude that I was inferring that the gift of tongues could cause "Bad Behavior." Every idea is an attack, isn't it? God Forbid! Of course not! The flesh unchecked causes bad behavior."

"One word of advice, for your sake. Be edifying, using the bible, and don't filter things to yourself as confrontation. It is a forum about issues and biblical ideas, and a lot of people will and do disagree, This is not a venue to attack, or it is not a venue for you to defend yourself, and your ideas, but to discuss them, that others may be edified."
This is good advice Brothertom, remove your plank and I will remove mine! I am unhappy we got to this point, but for the sake of all it needs to end. As you said I have also failed in this area. Hopefully we learn and do better next time, zenozac



 2008/8/15 12:54Profile









 Re: Murrcolr....the standard



I did not entirely understand the point of your post, though I agree with your assessment of the fact that we are all carnal to some degree.

If you are referring to my post, about tongues being useless, they in themselves, by claiming them, or operating in the gifting of them do not necessarily profit a man , if he does not love God, and bear his cross.


You left out one thing about the flesh, and the carnal,and that is that Paul also said that if you continue in these carnal ways, you would die. He also wrote a list of carnality that stated that Christian or not, that if you lived unrepentant in these carnal sins, you would not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.


So tongues are not useless because you are carnal in nature...they are in fact valuable if in your prayers and relationship with the Father, and the use of tongues, they would help lead you into overcoming; and that is to overcome..[b]the world, the Flesh, and the Devil.[/b]

This is the "standard" that I set in the tone of my posts. I simply stated that some consider tongues the "end all", and a more spiritual level of Christianity, and that is not true. Some denominations make tongues the standard for admission, and consider those who speak in tongues the "higher level", and deeper Christian...IE..and endorsement of maturity or God's blessing. Some consider it as the only sign of the Babtism of the Holy Spirit, and some believe that if you do not speak in tongues, you are not SAVED!

This is a lie. I pointed out some who speak in tongues, that are leaders in the charismatic world, with great followings, that are indeed heretics, and lead lavish and carnal lifestyles, and are greedy liars.


What good is that gift to them, or to you or I, if we end up in Hell?


Tongues are a wonderful gift, to commune with God, but do not endorse salvation or a real Christian walk.

Quote:

murrcolr wrote:
Guys/Girls

I think some of you think is differently from me.

The word "carnal" comes from the Latin word for flesh. In Romans viii, and in Gal. v., we are taught that the flesh and the Spirit of God are the two opposing powers by which we are dominated or ruled, and we are taught that a true believer may allow himself to be ruled by the flesh. That is what Paul writes to the Corinthians. In the 3rd chapter, the first four verses, he says, four times to them, "You are carnal, and not spiritual." And just so a believer can allow the flesh to have so much power over him that becomes "carnal." Every object is named according to its most prominent characteristic.

If anyone gives way, as the Corinthians did, to strife, temper, division, and envy, he is a carnal Christian. He is a Christian, but a carnal one. But if he gives himself over entirely to the Holy Spirit so that He (the Holy Spirit) can deliver from the temper, the envy, and the strife, by breathing a heavenly disposition; and can mortify the deeds of the body; then God's Word calls him a "spiritual" man
--------------------------------------------

Is there anyone here reading this thread that can say the have dealt with all the works of the flesh (Carnality, Sin)in there life.

------------------------------------------

Does it not say in the word

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one [point], he is becomes guilty of all.

By setting the standard that tounges are useless because of sin or carnality in your life you then have to apply this standard in all things you do. Which would include praying in our own language. By this standard then that would make these prayer useless as well.

Come on guys lets be real.

In Matthew 23, Jesus expressed his deep contempt for true religious hypocrites. Here are some of the charges he leveled against them:

They give out laws to others, but they do not live by them (vs. 3-4)

They love impressive, public religious displays, and being referred to with religious titles (vs. 5-12)

They win converts to their own religion, but not to God (vs. 13-15)

They re-interpret their own laws in order to suit their own purpose (vs. 16-22)

They emphasize minuscule religious details, yet ignore the most important truths (vs. 23-24)

They keep the outward appearance clean, while leaving the inside corrupt(vs.25-28)

They deny their own sinfulness (vs. 29-36)

There is not one of us good enough but thank God that he us sent his Son.

 2008/8/15 13:30
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1530
Scotland, UK

 Re:

The point of my post was to challenge the thought processes that brought about this statement.

Tounges are useless because of hidden sin(carnality)

If they use this standard on the matter of tounges then they must use this same standard when it comes to everything we do in our Christian life. One of them being when we pray in our natural language this would make your prayer time in any form useless.

Or we would be hypocrites.

We then have to look at ourselves and ask Lord is my hands clean is my heart pure. The answer would be no. We are not good enough not one of us.

We get on our high horse about the men and women mentioned on this thread. We look at them how wrong how bad they are. Yes there hearts are wicked but you know what our hearts are wicked to.

What would happen if they repented of what they where doing and started coming to the church you attend? Would you allow them in? Would you talk to them? Would there be any ill feeling in you?

Please be honest....

If God has given us a prayer language then lets use it. Tounges is a small part of the big picture. It's a gift that helps to pray when we don't know what to pray.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...


_________________
Colin Murray

 2008/8/15 14:48Profile
zenozac
Member



Joined: 2008/5/29
Posts: 8


 Re:to Pritybetta

I was hoping someone at some point would answer a question, but so far none have baothered. \Since you started this post and are obviously very read up on this subject, I will pose this simple question to you.
What other scriptures and what other quotes of Jesus are not for today? If we are throwing out Mark16: 15-18 for one among others. What else?

 2008/8/15 19:27Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Tongues

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_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/8/15 21:51Profile





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