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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Hi pritybetta,

You have stated the following.

"In 1Co 13:10, what is the word 'perfect' referring to? We see in the next two verses that nothing is perfect untill it is complete, that would indicate that the 'perfect' thing has to be complete first. Then it says that faith, hope and charity would abide after the 'perfect' comes. The 'perfect' here can not be referring to Christ because Christ is already complete and after Christ comes we would not need faith nor hope.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

As for tongues today, most would ask 'Then where does it come from if not from the Lord?', I would say it is either faked or it is from the Devil. I say this because many do fake things to make themselves seem more acceptable to others. And that the Bible teaches us that the son of perdition would use signs and wonders to try and deceive people from believing he is God".

First of all you don’t know what you are saying here about making the bible more perfect than Jesus Himself. When Jesus (who will bring perfection) comes sister we will not know in part any more because we (one’s truly born of God)will be like Him for we will see Him as He is and will not need the gifts any more because we will be in perfect Love.

I must say that I do not agree with all the charismatics on TV and elsewhere because of so many of their incorrect teachings. I believe because of a lot of confusing going on in many of the tongues movement, is the main reason you have stated what you have, and come to believe what you have said concerning tongues. I do pray that God will forgive you and open your eyes to the truth.

Even though what you have said is very condemning to the body of Christ who has received this gift from Christ, you have not offended me at all for your lack of understanding.

Your lack of understanding is evident and unless God opens your eyes to the truth you will continue to shut yourself off from many in the body of Christ.

There is an 86 year old man presently at this time going to places where few people would ever go. He is filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking tongues just like the bible says. He started a Pentecostal school in Russia in 1992 and now that school is in over 160 countries. He has been to Iraq and many other dangerous places.

I don’t know if you know it or not but in the underground church in China there are many more Christians than there is in the USA. There is multi- millions of Christians in China and other places in the world that are being persecuted for their belief. While many in America are living comfortably, they are being tortured and persecuted for Jesus Christ. There are millions in the body of Christ who have experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

On July 21st 2006, I had been praying and seeking the Lord for several days about some people in our church who were sick and one spirit filled brother had recently died at 39 Years old. I just wanted to get closer to God and wanted God to use me. It was between 11 and 12 that night when I knelt down to pray. I remember so vividly the very words I was saying to God before it happened.

I was on my knees praying - Father I come to thee in the only name I know how to come, in the name of Jesus Christ your Son and I don’t come because I’ve been a good boy but on the ground of the blood of Jesus. That was the last thing I remember saying as I looked back on what had happened. All of a sudden I found myself standing with my hands stretched out as far as I could and I was hollering so loud, and a thought came to me-Lord I’m going to wake everybody up hollering like this. The next thing I look down at my feet and legs and they were moving at a rapid rate of speed and the next though I had was to listen to myself and I was speaking fluently in a Language that wasn’t English and I can’t tell you what I said only God knows. I had the most awesome feeling I have ever had in my Life.

There is a lot more I could tell you and a lot has happened since then but I have never doubted that there is a baptism (infilling/running over of the Holy Sprit) of God with the evidence of speaking in another language.

The only people who can talk like you have is the people who have never experienced it and frankly ignorant to the ways of God. Sister God is not limited in others because of your understanding, maybe in you if you refuse to believe His word and enjoy your own understanding better than His. I could say more but maybe others who have experience the evidence of tongues can say something more.

I only hope you don’t leave this world judging what God has done in people’s lives as being of the devil. May God help you!

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Blessings in the powerful name of Jesus.

 2008/8/2 18:22Profile

Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135


The apostles were definately commanded to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Notice in Acts 1 that the Lord commanded the Apostles to stay in Jerusalem to wait for the Promise. They were not to preach or teach until they received the Baptism with the Holy Spirit

Yes they were.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

The promised Holy Spirit had not come yet. That is not the case with us. We are not instructed in any epistle to seek a baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are instructed to be filled with the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, to walk according to the Spirit.

Eph.4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We are sealed at the new birth, correct? well as the following?

Rom. 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Gal. 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of[b] God through Christ.

Look at what it says to the carnal Corinthians:

1 Cor.6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

We must start with the Word and then try to understand our experience rather than taking our experience to scripture to interpret it.

the scripture says there is one baptism...just one (i quoted this previously )Romans goes on to deal with this baptism also:

Rom.6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

This statement is a little tricky. There is always more that the Lord can give to us. As far as a newly saved person, you have many things that you can receive from the Lord. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one of many. Paul asked in Acts 19:2, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

Neither did the old testament saints have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but they believed and will be in heaven. I agree there is always more the Lord can give us, but concerning the indwelling Holy Spirit the question is how much He has of you.

Randy Lambert

 2008/8/3 16:27Profile

Joined: 2007/2/13
Posts: 135


He said that he himself prayed in tongues, and that when we pray in tongues to God we are edifying ourselves.

Did he say "praying" or speaking? That would be the distinction in our disagreement. I believe tongues was a sign to unbelievers as the verse I quoted earlier stated.

Building up yoursleves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost)

I don't agree with the interpretation that praying in the Holy Ghost or praying in the spirit is praying in tongues...or perhaps you are just saying that its OK to edify yourself by using that verse?

I have not completed my study of tongues, so there are some things left for me before discussing further.

Have you noticed that he refers to a tongue and also to tongues? One interpretation is that tongue is used for the ecstatic speech that the pagans used picked up by some in the church...while tongues refers to languages like the ones used in Acts at Pentecost.

Seperately: I believe that much is missed, misunderstood and misinterpretted when we don't take a close look and then when we find something that could be a deeper crack that needs to be looked into it is passed over. Experience cannot be the starting point either. In respect for you all, I dare not assume that you are wrong...but I cannot say that you are correct on this matter of praying in tongues.

Its not an important matter to me, thats why I've taken so many years to deal with may take many more.

Randy Lambert

 2008/8/3 17:22Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Zionshield wrote:

The promised Holy Spirit had not come yet. That is not the case with us. We are not instructed in any epistle to seek a baptism of the Holy Spirit. We are instructed to be filled with the Spirit, to walk in the Spirit, to walk according to the Spirit.

Hey brother I enjoy reading your posts and would also like to comment on the one baptism that eph. 4 mentions.

In Heb 6 it talks about leaving the doctrine of baptisms. We know the bible speaks of more than one baptism and it also mentions the Lord said unto my Lord.

It is obvious that the one Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ and the one faith is our belief in Him. The one baptism is our identification with him and it is clear that water baptism into Jesus Christ is the one outward sign that we are to practice.

The baptism into Christ can only be done by the Holy Spirit. The one baptism is the outward water baptism that we submit to and the spiritual baptism can only be done by God.

We also know that baptism in scripture also means immersion. The beginning of Acts in chapter 1 Jesus is telling His disciples that they were to be baptized in the Holy Ghost in a few days.

All through the book of acts every time people repented and believe in Jesus Christ they were to receive the one baptism in the name of Jesus Christ by water. It seems clear that these people were consider saved because the people in Samaria had great joy. We do know that all who were saved were regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

The ministers like Bro. Clendennon who talk about being baptized in the Holy Ghost are talking about being immersed in the Holy Spirit by Jesus and being endued with Power from on High.

When the Apostles went to Samaria, they prayed for them to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit like they had received on the day of Pentecost.

The bible seems clear that there is salvation by the Holy Spirit placing one into Christ.

It also seems very clear that the ones baptized into Christ were to be baptized in the Holy Ghost for power to witness.

Jesus said in acts 1:8 and you shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you and you shall be my witnesses.

Brother I believe that this power is so lacking today in the majority of the assemblies today and is the very reason why so little is done for Christ today.

You believe we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit because that is true. We are to be filled continually with the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Ghost is greater than just a filling, it is that and more, it is an immersion with power from on high.

Notice in Acts chapter 4 they were refilled again.

Many men of God have recognized the need of the power of the Holy Ghost in witnessing Christ.

I realized that the ones in acts 19 may have not been baptized into Christ (having the new birth). But it is clear that Paul baptized them in the name of Jesus representing the baptism into Christ which clearly shows the new birth.

It is also clear that He laid hands on them after this to receive the Holy Ghost (an immersion) and they received power from on high and miraculously spoke by the Spirit.

It seems clear if we study the scriptures that one believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. No where in the bible do we find any disciple praying for a sinner to receive the Holy Ghost. Jesus said the world could not receive Him.

The regenerated person in Christ is the only one who can receive the immersion in the Holy Ghost with power to witness Jesus Christ.

People can say all they want to about how we can't have the power of the Holy Ghost to do miracles like the apostles did but Jesus never said that he wanted his church to not have this power. We need the Holy Ghost in demonstration just like they needed Him back then. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Jesus said these signs shall follow them that believe not just the original apostles.

The only thing that limits God in our life is our own unbelief.

Blessings to you my brother!

 2008/8/3 23:34Profile

Joined: 2007/1/15
Posts: 365

 Re: tongues

I have found, by reason of experience, when folks start 'controversial' topics on ANY Christian forum such as this, seldom does anything edifying come of it. Instead God's people engage in uncharitable behavior, all in the name of Scriptural debate.
Brethren who pray in tongues often call those who don't, 'ignorant and resistant to the move of the Holy Spirit'. They respond in kind by calling us 'deceived and unScriptural'

Enough already!!!
Is this any way for brethren to treat each other?
What? Do we mean we're incapable of disagreeing agreeably?

Let us all repent for formenting schism in Jesus' body and let the OP check their motive for starting this thread. Remember to Whom you must give account.

While we're at it, let the 'tongue-talkers' go pray that we all increase in our knowledge of Him, in holiness, in power and in boldness [a la Ephesians 1:17 - 20, Ephesians 3:16 - 20]. Let the 'non-tongue talkers' go pray the same in their understanding.

As we continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

With much love.


 2008/8/4 9:33Profile

Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Gifts of the Holy Spirit

It is obvious there is a great deal of confusion here about spiritual truths. It helps when we do not allow our carnal minds to grasp for spiritually discerned things; much less, argue about such truths from a theoretical perspective rather than an acceptable experiential one founded and confirmed in and by Scripture.

If you don't mind spending about 3 dollars (plus S&H), buy this book, "The Gifts of the Holy Spirit", by Harold Horton.

If you are not familiar with Harold Horton, definitely look him up. He is also known from another testimonial book, "Seven Pentecostal Pioneers", by Colin Whittaker (another recommended buy).

The entire focus of this book is on exactly what you are considering here, 1 Corinthians 12 - 13 - 14.

I guarantee you will not regret buying this book, unless, you believe the Gifts of the Spirit are myths. I have never read any Christian literature so precise and detailed on the function and order of the Gifts of the Spirit. It is truly written by a man who was not only diligent to the Bible but living in the midst of what he wrote - Pentecost.

Find and read this book:
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, by Harold Horton.

Who is Harold Horton; you may ask:

The book may also be found here:

Edit: I would also like to mention that "tongues" is not a peculiarity to Christianity alone. "Gibberish" has been a trait of many demonic spiritists and world religions throughout history; and in my opinion has been embraced by many modern churches. However, it should be noted that the Christian tongues, as given by utterance of the Holy Ghost, is the exact opposite of the incident of the Tower of Babel. Those who speak in tongues, not "gibberish", by utterance of the Holy Spirit, not of spirits or of psychological powers, are speaking in a factual language.

I could lay out the teachings of "unknown", or rather "unlearned", tongues very straight-forwardly but I shall digress (I am just a random person writing about spiritual things on the internet anyways :-P ).

Seriously, check out the book I mentioned.

And also, in a quick response to the difference between having the Holy Spirit, as given by the seed of the Word of God - "born-again", and being baptized by the Holy Ghost, receiving power from on high, I recommend a quick read of a chapter by good ol' Charles G. Finney.

Come on, its Charles Finney! You know it is good!

The chapter is taken from a book called, of all things, Power From on High. You can even find the whole book here on SI, although the chapters are out of order :-(

Power From On High - Intro, by Charles Finney


 2008/8/4 16:24Profile

 Re: GLOSSA-ry

Below is a brief address of the subject of this thread.

Surely, it's not exhaustive, but it makes some good points.

I do not care to enter into any dialogue about this but thought that some may benefit by Gil's few words on the subject.

What About Tongues? by Gil Rugh

The first issue that has to be addressed on the topic of tongues is, "What is biblical tongues?" The major flaw in most discussions on the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues is the failure to consider what the Bible says about tongues and instead concentrating on people’s experiences.

As an example, a television preacher published a pamphlet presenting the definition of tongues and the reasons for speaking in tongues. He taught that tongues is basically a "spirit language" in which you communicate directly with God. It "bypasses your mind," and you do not even understand it unless there is an interpretation given. But is that an accurate description of biblical tongues?

A Biblical Definition

The word "tongue" is used frequently in the Bible. It refers most often to the physical tongue in the mouth, but it is also used to refer to a foreign language.

Revelation 5: 9 describes a scene in heaven with saints and angels singing to the Lamb:

"And they sang a new song, saying, 'Worthy are You to take the book, and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.'"

Here the word "tongue" is obviously referring to language— every tribe and language and people and nation. People from all the various languages of the earth have been redeemed by Christ.

Revelation 7: 9 reads, "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues." The word for "tongues," glossa, is used here as well. In English glossolalia is a form of the word, glossa, meaning to speak in tongues. In Revelation 7: 9 glossa is referring to languages. The nations, tribes, peoples, and languages of the earth are represented.

In Revelation 10: 11 John writes, "And they said to me, ‘You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.’ " Again in this context "tongues" obviously refers to the various earthly languages.

Tongues and the Holy Spirit

Acts 2 contains the first occurrence of tongues in the context of a supernatural activity related to the coming of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 4 reads: "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

Later, the passage describes the reaction of the multitude in Jerusalem:

"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? . . . Cretans and Arabs— we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God" (Acts 2: 8,11).

The word, glossa, is used again, but there is another word used here that is significant in the study of biblical tongues. Examine Acts 2: 6: "And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered, because they were each one hearing them speak in his own language." The word translated "language" is dialecto. In English it is "dialect."

This word is also used in Acts 2: 8: "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?"

The point is that the word glossa means exactly the same thing it means in other places in Scripture: It is a reference to an earthly language.

The Book of Acts clearly explains what happened at Pentecost. A diverse multitude of people had assembled at Jerusalem for the feast when suddenly a group of believers stood up and began "speaking in tongues." Scripture explains this phenomenon by indicating that they were speaking in the languages of the people who were there. Everyone heard his own language.

The gift of speaking in tongues evidenced at Pentecost was the act of speaking in languages that had not been learned or studied. The Spirit of God supernaturally empowered the disciples to speak in earthly languages that they did not know. The foreigners in Jerusalem who heard the disciples heard their own languages being spoken. It was not babble. It was not a heavenly language. It was an earthly language being spoken by these people.

Tongues As a Proof of Salvation

This was also the first occurrence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If tongues refers to an earthly language in Acts 2, one would expect to see that pattern in other places as well. Is there a similar pattern elsewhere in Scripture?

Acts 10 records the salvation of Cornelius and his family who are Gentiles. As the Apostle Peter preaches to them, they believe the Gospel; they are saved; they are baptized with the Spirit; and they begin to speak in tongues.

"'Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.' While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God" (Acts 10: 43– 46).

These Gentiles began to speak in tongues upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Is this the same phenomenon as that recorded in Acts 2? Acts 11 provides proof.

In Acts 11, Peter defends his preaching to the Gentiles. The Jews in Jerusalem had questions about whether preaching to the Gentiles was the right thing to do. Peter tells them that God appeared to him in a vision and instructed him. Then in Acts 11: 15 Peter says, "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning" (emphasis added).

Would the Jews present with Peter at Cornelius’ house have accepted mere babbling as valid evidence of the Spirit’s coming? What happened to the Jews in Acts 2? They began to speak in other earthly languages. Peter said the same thing happened to them as happened to us. What would that require? It would require speaking in an earthly language that they had not learned or studied. An earthly language is being described in Acts 2 and in Acts 10.

Tongues As a Unifying Factor

To understand the appearance of tongues in the New Testament, it is important to understand the Book of Acts as a transition book. There are four occasions where tongues occurs in the Book of Acts: Acts 2, probably in Acts 8, Acts 10 and Acts 19.

In Acts 2, the Jews receive the Spirit and are brought into the Church. In Acts 8, the Samaritans believe, are saved, receive the Spirit and are brought into the Church. In Acts 10, the Gentiles believe, receive the Spirit and are brought into the Church. In Acts 19, the disciples of John the Baptist believe, receive the Spirit and are brought into the Church.

On each of these occasions the Spirit comes in a special way and manifests His coming by the speaking of tongues to a special group of people. It is always in the context of an apostle’s ministry.

The presence of tongues in these instances served to unify the Church— it removed any question as to the validity of the conversion. The Jews from Acts 2 questioned whether the Gentiles should be viewed as part of the Church. However, any doubt was removed when Peter said, They have received the same gift as we have. From then on, there was no question that the Church would be comprised of Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans and followers of John the Baptist. It would be a unified Church under the leadership and authority of the apostles. Tongues served a very real purpose.

Tongues As a Sign of Judgment

The Apostle Paul refers to speaking in tongues as a sign: Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord. So then tongues are for a sign (1 Cor. 14: 20– 22).

The quote Paul uses is from the Book of Isaiah. In the passage, the Prophet Isaiah is foretelling the captivity of the Northern Kingdom of Israel:

"Indeed, He will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, He who said to them, 'Here is rest, give rest to the weary,' and, 'Here is repose,' but they would not listen" (Is. 28: 11,12).

Note the context of Isaiah 28: 11,12: "He will speak to this people with stammering lips," or as Paul puts it, "Through men of strange tongues." He is talking about the Assyrians. The Assyrians are going to come down and conquer Israel. The very presence of the foreign language of the Assyrians being spoken among the Israelites will be a testimony to them that they have been judged by God.

In the context of 1 Corinthians 14, the idea of a babble (a nonearthly language) is totally foreign. The verse Paul quotes from the Book of Isaiah identifies the word "tongue" as a language. The presence of a foreign language in Israel is a testimony of God’s judgment upon them because He had brought the foreigners in to conquer them. In 1 Corinthians the presence of a foreign language being spoken among the Jews is a testimony to them by God that they are being judged for their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah.

Deuteronomy 28 promised this as well if Israel disobeyed God: "The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, a nation of fierce countenance who shall have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young" (Deut. 28:49,50).

In Deuteronomy God tells Israel if they disobey Him, a nation whose language they do not understand will be brought to conquer them. In Isaiah God tells Israel that they have disobeyed Him. He is going to bring a nation (Assyria) upon them whose language they do not understand. Then in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul reminds Israel that this principle of judgment is still being evidenced. The presence of these foreign languages among the Jews are again God’s testimony: "You have been judged by Me, and now blessing is brought to the Gentiles." In Scripture, biblical tongues consistently refers to actual earthly languages.

There is one more word to look at in this discussion of biblical tongues. In 1 Corinthians 12: 10, as he talks about the various gifts, Paul writes:

"To another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues."

The word translated "kinds" in this verse is literally, genos. It means "nationality," "race," or "kindred of people." Therefore, 1 Corinthians 12: 10 says there are "various kinds of languages," or "various nationalities of tongues." The very use of the word "kinds" identifies "tongues" as an earthly language.

Biblical Tongues and Modern Tongues

Before pursuing the validity of modern day "speaking in tongues," it must be measured in light of the Bible. From studying these passages in the Scripture, it becomes obvious that tongues was the ability to speak an earthly language that had not been learned or studied. That was the biblical framework when tongues were spoken. Is the modern day phenomenon biblical as some are claiming?

The modern day phenomenon does not meet the basic criteria of what is laid down in the Bible. Today it usually consists of people babbling. They claim, "This is it. This is the biblical phenomenon described in the Book of Acts. This is what happens when the Holy Spirit comes into your life."

No. Wait a minute. That is not what happened in the Bible. The proof is not in the experience, but in sifting the experience through the Scripture.

The Consequences of Unsifted Theology

If one refuses to examine a practice in light of the specific criteria of Scripture, there is a loss of basis for testing it. To accept it because of some people’s experience poses another problem. The practice of babbling is not unique to Christianity—or even to the modern Charismatic Movement!

A man named William Samarian, a linguist, has written a book examining the phenomenon of tongues. He studied it in all different societies. The practice is not unique. Religious babbling does not even originate in the New Testament. This incoherent kind of speech has often been characteristic of unbiblical religions. Samarian shows that there are all kinds of pagan cultures that practice babbling.

The Mormons also practice babbling tongues. They experience it just like some Christians claim to experience it. How would someone know which phenomenon is true and genuine and which is not? How would someone know who really has the Spirit and who does not have the Spirit if the proof is not sifted through the Scriptures?

Another explanation that is offered for modern tongues is that what is spoken is an undiscovered language. John Sherrill, a Charismatic himself, has written a book on this. He went to the effort of examining many different tongues- speaking groups—taking linguists with him, taking tape recorders, recording everything that was said, then having the linguists sit down and analyze what was said. None of them found any trace of a language. They concluded that people basically tend to babble in the syllables that are native to them. There is no basic framework. Furthermore, there is no relationship to the sounds and the meaning given to them. In other words, you may have the same sounds uttered on four occasions, and you will have four different meanings given to those sounds in the interpretation that is provided in the meeting. Something is obviously wrong! That is not a normal language! The words have no meaning and are just sounds. That is all it is.

No Evidence of Modern Tongues

The modern day Charismatic Movement does not meet the criteria of New Testament tongues. The gift of tongues in the New Testament was the ability to speak in an earthly, foreign language that you had not learned or studied.

It is not uncommon to hear second and third- hand experiences that go something like "You know there was this case where this person did not know any Italian and all of a sudden he started speaking Italian, and the person there said, ‘Hey, have you ever studied Italian? ’ He said, ‘No. ’ And he said, ‘Well, you were just speaking in Italian! ’ "

That makes a wonderful story, but it is amazing that it never happens in firsthand experience. The people in the Charismatic Movement themselves, who run around with the tape recorders trying to find it, cannot find it. It always happened "over here" or "over there." The modern day tongues movement flunks the very first test.

It is apparent that the biblical gift of tongues is not being reproduced today. Nobody has been able to provide any concrete proof of it. Of course, the modern day Charismatic Movement is built on the premise that tongues is babbling, not a real language at all. However, this is a result of not carefully analyzing the Scripture to find out what biblical tongues were before accepting someone’s experience.

Can God do the miraculous? Yes He can. Can God heal people? Yes He can. Does God heal people? Yes He does, but that does not necessarily imply that the gift of healing is present today. James says that if anyone is sick, let him call for the elders, let them pray for him. He does not say, "Call for somebody who has the gift of healing." Paul tells Timothy, even as his ministry has worn on, "Use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." He does not say, "Here, Timothy, let me just heal you."

It is important to recognize what Scripture teaches about the "miracle gifts." It is appropriate to pray for healing. God heals; that is supernatural—miraculous. However, that does not imply that anyone has the gift of healing: walking in, laying their hands on and it is done. There is a lot of trickery going on, a lot of "hucksterism." What about Faith Healers? They are hucksters or frauds. Why? Because they cannot measure up to the biblical standard.

Then comes the question, "What is going on when people claim to be speaking in tongues?"

A variety of factors are often at work. There are books which describe how to begin speaking in tongues, you tilt your head back, close your eyes, open your mouth and you begin to make sounds, but you do not allow yourself to speak in your own language. You make a sound and just let yourself go. You can imagine what that would be like in a church setting, with someone saying," That is it! That is the Spirit. You have got it!" But that is not the biblical phenomenon, and if you are looking for something that is not biblical, the Devil will provide it.

Ultimately it goes back to the Devil. Gullible Christians who are not careful in sifting things through the Word tend to get drawn into these kinds of activities. Someone may say, "I know a lot of good that comes out of it." However, you have to measure it in light of the Word.

It is important to be very careful not to become subjective in the pursuit of the truth and not to refuse to allow the Word to be the standard and criteria for living the Christian life. Issues must be carefully examined through the Scripture. If an activity such as speaking in tongues is biblical, then a believer should embrace it, but if it is not biblical, then no thanks.

If any would be interested in an exhaustive treatment of this subject and those related to the Pentecostal experience, I'd highly recommend Frederick Dale Bruner's "A Theology Of The Holy Spirit - The Pentecostal Experience and the New Testament Witness."

Another book which is exhaustive which I'd highly recommend is Benjamin Warfield's, "Counterfeit Miracles". Just a small excerpt from the back cover of Warfield's book, "The present fascination with miracles,no longer restricted to the superstitions of the Roman Catholic Church-State,but now spread throughout the world by the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements,is not a sign of resurgent Christianity,as so many have said,but a sign of resurgent paganism.The sort of religion that pervaded ancient Rome and medieval Rome has returned,just as,and because,Christianity is fading from the modern mind."

 2008/8/4 17:03

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


I believe it was Smith Wigglesworth who promise a reward to any one who could prove a genuine baptism in the Holy Ghost without the evidence of speaking in tonques.

Leonard Ravenhill definitely was baptized in the Holy Spirit, yet he never spoke in tongues.

Jimmy H

 2008/8/4 18:42Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


Just a thought! I wonder are there any Calvinists who have had a definite baptism in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

Just wondering because I have found that those who are deeper in a man's theology....

Just a though because I hope that there is some who have the experience.

 2008/8/4 18:52Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC


If the 'perfect' was referring to Christ then why would we need faith which is the evidence of things not seen when we would have seen Christ? Or why would we need hope if we have seen Christ if hope that is seen is not hope? Now the Word of God is perfect is it not? Therefore, the 'perfect' in 1Co 13:10 has to be referring to the Word of God, the Bible.

In the Bible we see Paul's theology anticipate a lot of things to come. Nowhere does the Bible state what you just said it does. This is reading one's theology back into the Scripture. Nowhere does Paul or the apostles ever think what you just said. Indeed, Philippians 3 makes it clear that the perfect thing Paul is awaiting for is the resurrection of the dead, which is associated with the second coming of Christ. Paul also says the ministry gifts of the Church would be needed and utilized (Ephesians 4:11-13) until we attain corporate maturity and unity as the body of Christ. If one of the gifts of the Spirit are available to the Church, then all are. It's all or nothing in Paul's thelogy of the gifts.

Jimmy H

 2008/8/4 18:54Profile

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