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 Re: The ends and the means


May it never be that I give any impression of a detraction from man's responsibility to God.

All men are responsible to God as their Creator.

God commands men,not merely suggests.

All men are guilty before God as they all disobey His command(s).

The scriptures you listed are communicating from our human perspective regarding the Divine plan.

God has certainly appointed the means to His end,which we are certainly a part of.

Our obedience to any of His commands is evidence to/of His Divine Grace at work in us.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Note: These posts/discussions are the children's bread and reserved for them alone. Those who are yet outside of the household of faith are to be commanded to repent and believe the Gospel. The dead must first be raised by His Spirit and Word before they can be fed the Bread of life to sustain that new life in Christ.

Again,the scriptures you mention are not contradictory to any of those doctrines I have mentioned.

If I may give this illustration to attempt to explain...

If I were 100lbs. overweight and I was giving seminars on losing weight I'd not be taken very seriously. Or if I were applying for a position as a fitness trainer and was paralyzed from the neck down I'd be looked upon as rather strange to say the least.

If we claim to be preachers of righteousness and followers of Christ,and yet live unrighteously and do not walk as He walked,all that we say will be lost by what we do. I do not suppose we'd get an audience at all under such circumstances,but even if we were to, we'd be a secondary cause for men to mock, as we'd be a reproach to the Gospel.

Again,I cannot emphasize enough the fact that God has appointed the means as well as the end.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1 Cor. 1:21)

There as well as many other places is our involvement.

Rom.10:14,15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

Why any would conclude that God's absolute sovereignty cancels out man's responsibility is something I've not figured out yet.

Here's an excerpt of a post from the 'Is God All Knowing' thread where I've quoted from Easton's Bible Dictionary:

"...All that pertain to salvation, the means (Ephesians 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:5,10)...The decree being the act of an infinite, absolute, eternal, unchangeable, and sovereign Person, comprehending a plan including all his works of all kinds, great and small, from the beginning of creation to an unending eternity; ends as well as means, causes as well as effects, conditions and instrumentalities as well as the events which depend upon them, must be incomprehensible by the finite intellect of man...The decrees of God are (1) efficacious, as they respect those events he has determined to bring about by his own immediate agency; or (2) permissive, as they respect those events he has determined that free agents shall be permitted by him to effect.

I agree that christians ought to, "Pray as if it all depended upon God, and work as if it all depended on you. My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will. It is the will of God that saves. It is the will of man that damns." (CHS)

Soli Deo Gloria

 2008/8/4 0:32

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


tjservant wrote:
Added original question for context

So, are you saying that salvation is dependent upon ones continued actions of obedience?
The only action that you must do is abide in Christ, yes.

This sounds as if the believer is responsible for his own salvation to some degree.

No, Salvation is not a thing one has to be maintained.
It is a relationship with God through Christ.

Relationships are a two way entity. Both must do their part.

This type of maintenance salvation seems to be dependent upon man's ability.

No, it is mans responsibility.
Furthermore, Responsibility is not anything to boast in.

I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us, are we not keeping our salvation by being good and risking works righteousness?

[b]Jamess 4:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.[/color]

Once again..if it is .00001% about is not ALL about Him.

It is not "[b]All[/b]" about Him.
The eternal life I have been given is a relationship which is about Jesus [b]and[/b] me.

Just as my marriage is about me & my wife.
Just as a famility is about the parent [b]and[/b] the kids.

 2008/8/5 19:14Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



wisevirgin wrote:
Is the following quote true or false?
"one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith."

YES! Not one,but many,will indeed walk away from Christ, and depart from the faith they [b]seemed[/b] to have.

Faith can not be "seeming".
Either you believe or you don't.

Say you used to believe in evolution.
Now you don't.
Was the faith in evolution, seeming?
No, you actually believed it, until you were persuaded from it to the truth.

Same as for Christianity.
One may truly believe in the doctrines and have true faith in Christ.
However, one may be persuaded to a lie and not believe it any more.
It is called deception, Jesus warned about it to His disciples.

Therefore, the following quote is true:
"one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith."

 2008/8/5 19:25Profile

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