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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A look at Perseverance of the Saints

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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA



Logic wrote:
tjservant wrote:

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

Obediance is nothing to boast about.
[b]Luk 17:7[/b] [color=990000]But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to eat?
[b]:8[/b] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready that I may eat, and gird yourself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward you shall eat and drink?
[b]:9[/b] Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
[b]:10[/b] So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

So, are you saying that salvation is dependant upon ones continued actions of obedience?


 2008/7/22 17:33Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


tjservant wrote:

So, are you saying that salvation is dependant upon ones continued actions of obedience?

The only action that you must do is abide in Christ, yes.
Would you say dying in willfull, intentional, continual disobediance(sin) would still give you passage into heaven?

Wouldn't Jesus say that He never knew you, because you work lawlessness(disobediance)? Matthew 7:23

I'm not talking about salvation by works(of the law), which Paul preached against.

 2008/7/22 17:50Profile

Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN


Phillip, you repeating yourself makes it no more true the second time than it was the first. I'm not arguing that we contribute to our salvation and that it is not entirely the grace of God. I'm arguing about the origin of faith and where we get it. None of these verses, which you have now posted twice, say that God forcefeeds us the faith through which we are saved, and that we have to choice in the matter.

Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/22 17:52Profile

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


Added original question for context

So, are you saying that salvation is dependent upon ones continued actions of obedience?

The only action that you must do is abide in Christ, yes.

This sounds as if the believer is responsible for his own salvation to some degree.

This type of maintenance salvation seems to be dependent upon man's ability. This is why I believe the verses you quoted from Luke 17 are clear in that there is no reason to boast because the price was paid in full on the cross and we are not adding, aiding, or maintaining salvation...lest anyone have reason to boast.

I cannot help but wonder that if our salvation depends upon us, are we not keeping our salvation by being good and risking works righteousness?

Once again..if it is .00001% about is not ALL about Him.

Just some thoughts


 2008/7/22 18:34Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


John 15:15-20 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As a chosen branch, all that I am as a branch is coming form the root, vine or tree. Not only chosen but ordained to bring forth fruit. Christ's ordination of the believer, is non refundable. If Christ ordains it, it will be so and the Father will get the glory. For it is Christ in us that is the Glory. I am just praising God that He chose to birth His Son in me.
All that I am is because of Him. I am nothing without Him. 0, zip, Nada, nothing. With Him I am all the Father intended me to be or ever will be.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I praise God that I have the faith-Christ in me and everything else that God has made me to be in Him.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/7/22 18:43Profile

 Re: R&F

Repentance and faith are gifts which must be given by God, just as life itself must be given by God.

Act 11:18 And hearing these things, they kept silent and glorified God, saying, Then God also has granted to the nations repentance unto life.

2Ti 2:23-26 But refuse the foolish and uninstructed questionings, knowing that they generate quarrels. But a slave of the Lord ought not to quarrel, but to be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness teaching those who have opposed, if perhaps God may give them repentance for a full knowledge of the truth,and they having regained senses out of the snare of the devil, being captured by him to do the will of that One.

John 12:37-40 But though He had done so many miraculous signs before them, they did not believe into Him, so that the Word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he said, "Lord, who has believed our report? And the arm of the Lord, to whom was it revealed?" Because of this they could not believe, because Isaiah said again,"He has blinded their eyes" and "has hardened their heart," "that they might not see with the eyes" and "understand with the heart," "and be converted," "and I should heal them."

Act 18:24-28 But a certain Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus, being powerful in the Scriptures. This one having been taught by mouth in the way of the Lord, and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things about the Lord, having understood only the baptism of John. And this one began to speak boldly in the synagogue. And hearing him Priscilla and Aquila took him and more accurately expounded the way of God to him.
And he having intended to go through into Achaia, having been encouraged, the brothers wrote to the disciples to welcome him; who, having arrived, helped much those who were believing[to have faith in,upon,or with respect to,a person or thing] through [A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act] grace [of manner or act; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life]. For he powerfully confuted the Jews publicly, proving through the Scriptures Jesus to be the Christ.

Philippians 1:29. for to you it has been granted [graciously conferred] for [on behalf of] Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

Granted (Strong's #5483, charizomai from charis meaning grace) signifies a gift of grace and is the same verb Paul used in Philippians 2:9 to describe the "bestowal" of the Name above every name upon Jesus.

Philippians 1:29 in the KJV says, "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ,not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

"To believe in him, that is, to rest on Christ, surrendering oneself to his loving heart, depending on his accomplished mediatorial work. The form of the expression as used in the original shows that here genuine, personal trust in the Anointed One is meant. Whether or not one regards Eph. 2:8 as proof for the proposition that such faith is God’s gift, the conclusion is at any rate inescapable that here in Phil. 1:29 faith — not only its inception but also its continued activity — is so regarded"(W. Hendriksen).

Job 33:13 Why do you contend against Him, since He does not give account to you for any of His matters?

Job serves as an example to any who might demand from God that He give account to them.

Responsibility assumes accountability.

When mere men meddle with the Almighty by attempting to make Him answerable for His doings by their man-ipulating questioning of Him it merely shows how base they are not even having begun to know His Holiness(i.e. Otherness).

The claim that a man even could(if he desired to),make the Only True and Wise God a tyrant,shows just how ignorant many men are.

Again,even if a man desired to,he cannot make the Only True and Wise God a tyrant by the mere definition of the word.

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary;

2 entries found.

Main Entry: ty·rant
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tyraunt, from Anglo-French tyran, tyrant, from Latin tyrannus, from Greek tyrannos
Date: 14th century

1 a: an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution b: a usurper of sovereignty
2 a: a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally b: one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

As all may very easily conclude from the above,the word may only apply to equal or created beings, as such a person(tyrant)may be judged by those ruled and the laws thereof. The words 'a usurper of sovereignty' being the key to its understanding.

"The LORD our Sovereign" is not subject to men in any wise.

To those who'd think or say otherwise I'd say,

Such men's 'god is too small' and no god at all.

 2008/7/27 1:38

Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613



You are indeed wise and blessed by God. Although I've only read some of your posts (here and there) but I can tell that your posts are very edifying.


 2008/7/30 12:52Profile

 Re: Jer. 32:40

Is the following quote true or false?

"one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith."(Logic)

YES! Not one,but many,will indeed walk away from Christ, and depart from the faith they seemed to have.

John 6:66,67 From that time many of his disciples went back,and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve,will ye also go away?

"go away" is Strong's #5217 which Strong says means,"literally or figuratively: - depart, get hence, go (a-) way."

It's important to note that prior to these two verses it is stated by Jesus in verses 64,65 "But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were, the ones not believing, and who was the one betraying Him. And He said, Because of this, I have told you that no one is able to come to Me except it is given to him from My Father."

We are often deceived regarding the ones following Him, "However, the foundation of God stands firm, having this seal, "The Lord knew the ones being His."(2Ti 2:19)

Joh 10:11 I am the Good Shepherd! The Good Shepherd lays down His life on behalf of the sheep. Joh 10:14,15 I am the Good Shepherd, and I know those that are Mine, and I am known by the ones that are Mine. Even as the Father knows Me, I also know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. Joh 10:24 Then the Jews encircled Him, and said to Him, Until when do You lift up our soul? If You are the Christ, tell us publicly.Joh 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you did not believe. The works which I do in the name of My Father, these bear witness about Me. But you do not believe for you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of My Father's hand.
I and the Father are One!

"...Except the LORD build the house,they labor in vain that build it..." Ps. 127:1

1Pe 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in Heaven for you
the ones in the power of God being guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time;

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?...Rom 8:38,39 For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

The scripture says,"...nor any other creature...",therefore I myself being a creature am included in the list in which it is stated that cannot separate us from the love of God in Christ.

The faith of God's elect shall not fail.

Tit 1:1,2Paul, a slave of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of the elect of God and full knowledge of the truth according to godliness,on hope of eternal life which the God who does not lie promised before the eternal times.

Luk 22:31,32 And the Lord said,Simon,Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you,that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee,that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted,strengthen thy brethren.

2Co 1:20-22 For all the promises of God in him are yea,and in him,Amen,unto the glory of God by us. Now he which establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Such promises are given in Jeremiah regarding the New and Everlasting Covenant in Christ.

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts,that they shall not depart from me.

According to God in His Word,His promise is that He will put His fear in the hearts of those given to the Son,those that the Father and Son covenanted to be heirs of His Eternal Kingdom.It is such a fear that they shall not depart from Him.

Thanks be to God that He Who began a good work in us will complete it(Php.1:6),as I am prone to wander and depart in and of myself but for the grace of God. So I confess and sing:

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be!
Let thy goodness like a fetter
Bind my wandering heart to thee:
Prone to wander, Lord I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here's my heart, O, take and seal it;
Seal it for thy courts above.

One commentator has written on Jeremiah 32:40:

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them,.... Which is made known and manifest at conversion; when the grace of it is applied; the blessings of it bestowed; and the promises of it made good; and therefore said to be made; for otherwise the covenant of grace here spoken of was made from all eternity with Christ, and his people in him; as appears from his being set up as the Mediator so early, and from the blessings and promises of it being of such a date. It is founded on the everlasting love of God, and is according to his eternal purpose; and is no other than an eternal transaction between the Father and the Son concerning the salvation of his elect; and which will last for ever, and never be antiquated, as the covenant under the former dispensation was; and which shows that this respects Gospel times:

that I will not turn away from them to do them good; he may withdraw his gracious presence for a while; but he never turns from his love and affections to his people; nor from his gracious purposes concerning them; nor from his promises to them; nor from his gifts bestowed on them; or so as to utterly leave them and forsake them, or cease to do them good: he has laid up goodness for them; he has bestowed much on them whom he has called by his grace; he has given himself to them as their God and portion; his Son as their Saviour and Redeemer, and all good things with him; his Spirit as their Sanctifier, with his gifts and graces; and he has wrought a good work in them; and he will continue to do them good, by fresh discoveries of his love; by granting his gracious presence; by carrying on his work of grace; by supplying their wants, and making all things work together for their good.

but I will put my fear in their hearts; which is not naturally in the hearts of them; and, where it is, it is put there by the grace of God, and as a blessing of the covenant; it appears in those who are brought to a true sight of sin, in their humble sense of themselves, and dependence on the Lord; and in a reverent affection for him: and in a true and spiritual worship of him; and which is a security from a final and total apostasy from him, as follows:

that they shall not depart from me; not but that they may and do sin against God; and there may be a partial departure from him in those that truly fear him; but not a wicked, final, and total one: the fear of God influences them to cleave close unto him; and the power of God keeps them from departing from him, from his doctrines, worship, and ordinances, from his people, and a profession of his name.

As another writer puts it, "God promises to change our hearts and cause us to love and fear him. Verse 39: "I will give them one heart and one way that they may fear me always . . . (v. 40b) I will put the fear of me in their hearts." In other words, God will not simply stand by to see if we, by our own powers, will fear him; he will sovereignly, supremely, mercifully give us the heart that we need to have, and give us the faith and the fear of God that will lead us home to heaven. This is sovereign, sustaining grace. (See Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 11:19–20; 36:27.)

God Promises We Will Not Turn Away from Him

God promises that he will not turn away from us and we will not turn away from him. Verse 40: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me." In other words, his heart work is so powerful that he guarantees we will not turn from him. This is what's new about the new covenant: God promises to fulfill by his power the conditions that we have to meet. We must fear him and love him and trust him. And he says, I will see to that. I will "put the fear of me in their hearts"—not to see what they will do with it, but in such a way that "they will not turn from me." This is sovereign, sustaining grace."

Not grace to bar what is not bliss,
Nor flight from all distress, but this:
The grace that orders our trouble and pain,
And then, in the darkness, is there to sustain.

 2008/8/3 1:29



"OF GOD ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, who was made unto us wisdom from God, both righteousness and sanctification, and redemption."--I COR.1:30

"My Father is the husbandman."--JOHN 15:1

"Ye ARE in Christ Jesus." The believers at Corinth were still feeble and carnal, only babes in Christ. And yet Paul wants them, at the outset of his teaching, to know distinctly that they are in Christ Jesus. The whole Christian life depends on the clear consciousness of our position in Christ. Most essential to the abiding in Christ is the daily renewal of our faith's assurance, "I am in Christ Jesus." All fruitful preaching to believers must take this as its startingpoint: "Ye are in Christ Jesus."

But the apostle has an additional thought, of almost greater importance: "OF GOD are ye in Christ Jesus." He would have us not only remember our union to Christ, but specially that it is not our own doing, but the work of God Himself. As the Holy Spirit teaches us to realize this, we shall see what a source of assurance and strength it must become to us. If it is of God alone that I am in Christ, then God Himself, the Infinite One, becomes my security for all I can need or wish in seeking to abide in Christ.

Let me try to understand what it means, this wonderful "OF GOD in Christ." In becoming partakers of the union with Christ, there is a work God does and a work we have to do. God does His work by moving us to do our work. The work of God is hidden and silent; what we do is something distinct and tangible. Conversion and faith, prayer and obedience, are conscious acts of which we can give a clear account; while the spiritual quickening and strengthening that come from above are secret and beyond the reach of human sight. And so it comes that when the believer tries to say, "I am in Christ Jesus," he looks more to the work he did, than to that wondrous secret work of God by which he was united to Christ. Nor can it well be otherwise at the commencement of the Christian course. "I know that I have believed," is a valid testimony. But it is of great consequence that the mind should be led to see that at the back of our turning, and believing, and accepting of Christ, there was God's almighty power doing its work--inspiring our will, taking possession of us, and carrying out its own purpose of love in planting us into Christ Jesus. As the believer enters into this, the divine side of the work of salvation, he will learn to praise and to worship with new exultation, and to rejoice more than ever in the divineness of that salvation he has been made partaker of. At each step he reviews, the song will come, "This is the Lord's doing"--Divine Omnipotence working out what Eternal Love had devised. "OF GOD I am in Christ Jesus."

The words will lead him even further and higher, even to the depths of eternity. "Whom He hath predestinated, them He also called." The calling in time is the manifestation of the purpose in eternity. Ere the world was, God had fixed the eye of His sovereign love on you in the election of grace, and chosen you in Christ. That you know yourself to be in Christ, is the stepping-stone by which you rise to understand in its full meaning the word, "OF GOD I am in Christ Jesus." With the prophet, your language will be, "The Lord hath appeared of old unto me: yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee." And you will recognise your own salvation as a part of that "mystery of His will, according to the good pleasure of His will which He purposed in Himself," and join with the whole body of believers in Christ as these say, "In whom we also have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will." Nothing will more exalt free grace, and make man bow very low before it, than this knowledge of the mystery "OF GOD in Christ."

It is easy to see what a mighty influence it must exert on the believer who seeks to abide in Christ. What a sure standing-ground it gives him, as he rests his right to Christ and all His fulness on nothing less than the Father's own purpose and work! We have thought of Christ as the Vine, and the believer as the branch; let us not forget that other precious word, "My Father is the husbandman." The Saviour said, "Every plant which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up"; but every branch grafted by Him in the True Vine, shall never be plucked out of His hand. As it was the Father to whom Christ owed all He was, and in whom He had all His strength and His life as the Vine, so to the Father the believer owes his place and his security in Christ. The same love and delight with which the Father watched over the beloved Son Himself, watch over every member of His body, every one who is in Christ Jesus.

What confident trust this faith inspires--not only as to the being kept in safety to the end, but specially as to the being able to fulfil in every point the object for which I have been united to Christ. The branch is as much in the charge and keeping of the husbandman as the vine; his honour as much concerned in the wellbeing and growth of the branch as of the vine. The God who chose Christ to be Vine fitted Him thoroughly for the work He had as Vine to perform. The God who has chosen me and planted me in Christ, has thereby engaged to secure, if I will but let Him, by yielding myself to Him, that I in every way be worthy of Jesus Christ. Oh that I did but fully realize this! What confidence and urgency it would give to my prayer to the God and Father of Jesus Christ! How it would quicken the sense of dependence, and make me see that praying without ceasing is indeed the one need of my life--an unceasing waiting, moment by moment, on the God who has united me to Christ, to perfect His own divine work, to work in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

And what a motive this would be for the highest activity in the maintenance of a fruitful branch-life! Motives are mighty powers; it is of infinite importance to have them high and clear. Here surely is the highest: "You are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works": grafted by Him into Christ, unto the bringing forth of much fruit. Whatever God creates is exquisitely suited to its end. He created the sun to give light: how perfectly it does its work! He created the eye to see: how beautifully it fulfils its object! He created the new man unto good works: how admirably it is fitted for its purpose.

OF GOD I am in Christ: created anew, made a branch of the Vine, fitted for fruit-bearing. Would to God that believers would cease looking most at their old nature, and complaining of their weakness, as if God called them to what they were unfitted for! Would that they would believingly and joyfully accept the wondrous revelation of how God, in uniting them to Christ, has made Himself chargeable for their spiritual growth and fruitfulness! How all sickly hesitancy and sloth would disappear, and under the influence of this mighty motive--the faith in the faithfulness of Him of whom they are in Christ--their whole nature would rise to accept and fulfil their glorious destiny!

O my soul! yield yourself to the mighty influence of this word: "OF GOD ye are in Christ Jesus." It is the same GOD OF WHOM Christ is made all that He is for us, OF WHOM we also are in Christ, and will most surely be made what we must be to Him. Take time to meditate and to worship, until the light that comes from the throne of God has shone into you, and you have seen your union to Christ as indeed the work of His almighty Father. Take time, day after day, and let, in your whole religious life, with all it has of claims and duties, of needs and wishes, God be everything. See Jesus, as He speaks to you, "Abide in me," pointing upward and saying, "My FATHER IS THE HUSBANDMAN. Of Him you are in me, through Him you abide in me, and to Him and to His glory shall be the fruit you bear." And let your answer be, Amen, Lord! So be it. From eternity Christ and I were ordained for each other; inseparably we belong to each other: it is God's will; I shall abide in Christ. It is of God I am in Christ Jesus.

 2008/8/3 21:42

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1262



I have enjoyed and agree very much with the sovereignty of God and His all powerful ability in saving us by grace alone through faith which are the gifts of God.

The bible says that we only love Him because He first loved us. The bible also talks about the responsibility that God has given to us.

These three scriptures seem to show us that God has given to us a part in salvation by His grace.

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

It seems very clear that Paul believed that more people could be saved by his dedication to the ministry.

I know that we can’t make ourselves born again and nothing can be accomplished with out God’s enablement.

If the number of the elect has already been decided without man being involved, why did Paul make these statements which clearly show man’s involvement.

The prayer that the Lord taught the disciples, He even said for us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It is clear that God works through man and it seems to me the success in the gospel ministry and even in the winning of souls is also in the obedience of man in following God’s plan.


 2008/8/3 22:27Profile

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