Tom... excellent. You've expressed in one post what I've tried unsuccessfully for years to express on this forum.
| 2008/11/11 11:42|
"According to Paul, women must be learners, and are not allowed to be [i]public teachers in the church;[/i] for teaching is an office of authority, and the woman must not usurp authority over the man, but is to be in silence. But, notwithstanding this prohibition, good women may and ought to teach their children at home the principles of religion. Timothy from a child had known the holy scriptures; and who should teach him but his mother and grandmother? 2 Tim. iii. 15. Aquila and his wife Priscilla expounded unto Apollos the way of God more perfectly; but then they did it privately, for they took him unto them, Acts xviii. 26. 6. Here are two very good reasons given for the man's authority over the woman, and her subjection to the man, v. 13, 14. Adam was first formed, then Eve; she was created for the man, and not the man for the woman (1 Cor. xi. 9); then she was deceived, and brought the man into the transgression."
- Matthew Henry's expositions on I Timothy.
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/11/11 12:34||Profile|
Paul: Matthew Henry seems like an orderly fellow; but Oh so dry. I am not a theologian, nor do I propose Female leadership in the Body; but an equality in holy fruit that does express His love and deliverance. We are a body..not a pulpit.
| 2008/11/11 21:25|
1 Timothy 5:14
I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine,[b] teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children[/b]
I think the above cover the boundary of women ministries, both for the old and the young. Everything else...should better be governed under their husband's headship in the Lord.
God's wisdom in light of church order regarding women, provides not just order, but safeguard for the women and from all sorts of potential problems. (edited out)
It's just not wise for women to "share" their anything with men, private of public, be they gifts, knowledge, etc. Women should best only minister to women. That's not to say when couples visit, that the women couldn't share with one another in the presence of their own husbands. Whereas, to serve, there's always other means of ministries in hospitality, children's work, etc.
| 2008/11/12 0:25||Profile|
Matthew Henry seems like an orderly fellow; but Oh so dry.
This is a quotation from MH's commentary on the creation of woman... dry?
In particular I would draw your attention to section 4.
[color=0000FF][i]21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.[/i] Here we have,
[b]I. The making of the woman, to be a help-meet for Adam.[/b]
This was done upon the sixth day, as was also the placing of Adam in paradise, though it is here mentioned after an account of the seventh day's rest; but what was said in general (ch. i. 27), that God made man male and female, is more distinctly related here. Observe, 1. That Adam was first formed, then Eve (1 Tim. ii. 13), and she was made of the man, and for the man (1 Cor. xi. 8, 9), all which are urged there as reasons for the humility, modesty, silence, and submissiveness, of that sex in general, and particularly the subjection and reverence which wives owe to their own husbands. Yet man being made last of the creatures, as the best and most excellent of all, Eve's being made after Adam, and out of him, puts an honour upon that sex, as the glory of the man, 1 Cor. xi. 7. If man is the head, she is the crown, a crown to her husband, the crown of the visible creation. The man was dust refined, but the woman was dust double-refined, one remove further from the earth.
[b]2. That Adam slept while his wife was in making,[/b]
.. that no room might be left to imagine that he had herein directed 20 the Spirit of the Lord, or been his counsellor, Isa. xl. 13. He had been made sensible of his want of a meet help; but, God having undertaken to provide him one, he does not afflict himself with any care about it, but lies down and sleeps sweetly, as one that had cast all his care on God, with a cheerful resignation of himself and all his affairs to his Maker's will and wisdom. Jehovah-jireh, let the Lord provide when and whom he pleases. If we graciously rest in God, God will graciously work for us and work all for good.
[b]3. That God caused a sleep to fall on Adam,[/b]
and made it a deep sleep, that so the opening of his side might be no grievance to him; while he knows no sin, God will take care he shall feel no pain. When God, by his providence, does that to his people which is grievous to flesh and blood, he not only consults their happiness in the issue, but by his grace he can so quiet and compose their spirits as to make them easy under the sharpest operations.
[b]4. That the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam;[/b]
.. not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved. Adam lost a rib, and without any diminution to his strength or comeliness (for, doubtless, the flesh was closed without a scar); but in lieu thereof he had a help meet for him, which abundantly made up his loss: what God takes away from his people he will, one way or other, restore with advantage. In this (as in many other things) Adam was a figure of him that was to come; for out of the side of Christ, the second Adam, his spouse the church was formed, when he slept the sleep, the deep sleep, of death upon the cross, in order to which his side was opened, and there came out blood and water, blood to purchase his church and water to purify it to himself. See Eph. v. 25, 26.[/color]
| 2008/11/12 7:46||Profile|
Wow... Matthew Henry dry?? That's a first!
Matthew Henry's commentaries are deep and rich and colorful. I'm almost in shock here!
| 2008/11/12 8:13|
4. That the woman was made of a rib out of the side of Adam;.. not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be beloved. Adam lost a rib, and without any diminution to his strength or comeliness (for, doubtless, the flesh was closed without a scar); but in lieu thereof he had a help meet for him, which abundantly made up his loss: what God takes away from his people he will, one way or other, restore with advantage. In this (as in many other things) Adam was a figure of him that was to come; for out of the side of Christ, the second Adam, his spouse the church was formed, when he slept the sleep, the deep sleep, of death upon the cross, in order to which his side was opened, and there came out blood and water, blood to purchase his church and water to purify it to himself. See Eph. v. 25, 26.
I've read this gem before. Its beauty and soaring insight leaves the reader breathless. This is not dry commentary by any means; this is wonderful ministry that is able to bring forth tears.
Paul Frederick West
| 2008/11/12 16:50||Profile|
2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man (man, woman or thing) after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Under the Law, including the first one given in the garden, woman is in obedience to the man as man is in obedience to God. Under grace, "henceforth we know no man, which is, "any man woman or thing", after the flesh. But, "after the Spirit". The Spirit is not male or female, hence, in Heaven, there is no man or woman, male or female. If we maintain the Law, then headship is in force, if we administer Grace and our goal is reconciliation, then there is only one Head and that is Christ, for all that are new creatures in Christ.
If a woman is in the flesh and preaching in the Church, she is just like a man in the flesh preaching in the Church. If a woman is in the Spirit, then she is just like a man in the Spirit and the ministry of reconciliation is for both, that are in the Spirit. So, the criteria for ministry is not male and female, but whether either are in the Spirit and In Christ. We must stop this distinction of male a female or the Spirit of God is quenched in the Churc, His Body. I don't know how to express it any better, it is my lack, not Gods'. Male and Female are Christ Ones, and in Christ no dominance but His as our reconciler to Himself and the Father by the Holy Spirit. Male and Female in Christ our only hope of Glory. Even our reconciliation to each other and to the Father by His Son who gave Himself for us and loved us as One in Himself.
Praise God for blessing all that are His, no longer in the flesh, but knowing Him and female and male being in Christ Jesus our Lord and Life. Amen
In Him, as us: Phillip
| 2008/11/12 17:03||Profile|
Male and Female are Christ Ones, and in Christ no dominance but His as our reconciler to Himself and the Father by the Holy Spirit.
Christinyou @ 2008/11/12 22:03
dominance? you are confusing order with control.
| 2008/11/13 7:41||Profile|
Democratic Republic of Congo
| Re: scripture is the final authority|
I tremble at the point you guys are pushing this discussion very far, but the surprising and sad reality is that we are relaying more on men's commentary than the literature of the scriptures that seems that we are questioning the apostle Paul understanding and at the same time we'll not say so but we question the inspiration by which he spoke with not that i put these commentary in question but i just don't esteem it higher than scriptures No! scriptures are the final authority.
what scriptures says it says it, if it doesn't it doesn't.
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
| 2008/11/14 15:34||Profile|