| Re: One Body, One Lord, One Spirit, and One God above all, and in all.|
Andy Lacey:It is utterly impossible to have read my post and come up with these conclusions. At a glance, you would see that I am categorically opposed to the headship of woman over men, and how much more so in the Marriage! I am opposed to women leading the Church, and teaching over men, and espousing Doctrinal views and standards in the Church!
Either you could not understand this..[my premise and thread] or you refused to, or you did not read a word of this article. You may have glanced at the title, and responded in a "knee jerk" fashion, assuming that another neocharismatic asexual liberal is invading and must be stopped.
In one of my responses, I stated that in my years in Christ, Spirit filled, I have never seen one woman in the title role as Pastor, that was not in error of some sort or another...not one..and that goes for female teachers as you described. I believe that women are the weaker vessel, and God has prohibited them from Christian government, including Doctrinal foundations.
Saying that[my thread is littered with these statements, if you would have read it.], this is my proposal, and my perception of ministry. Ministry is the anointing in the body of Christ, expressing himself in a myriad of ways, to edify the body through the Body. This anointing , as stated or implied throughout the new Testament, is of neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female.
The body is formed of men and women.[I hope you agree with this.] If a woman is inhabited by God himself, through His Holy Spirit, then she is a member of the inheritance. She has become an offspring of God through the new birth. The same holy Spirit that dwells in her, dwells in all the Body, from the prophets, to Jesus, the Apostles, and Pentecost onward.
"He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." This is not the man sex here Andy. This is the race of men,,,male and female human beings. So, if the same Holy Spirit that dwelt in , say, the Apostle Paul, that dwells in me also, is Living in the sisters, does He then immediately go mute? Does He not speak, or listen?; as "He who has a hear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches!"
Does the love and compassion of the Spirit grow cold, because the host is female? Can a sister display the love of Christ in tangible and pragmatic ways?...Can a sister say, pray for the sick? Can she do this with her voice, or would you have her think it? Can a sister give her testimony to the lost?..Can she give her testimony in a meeting?...as spoken of by Paul?
Can a sister speak to another about Jesus, say at her job, or her neighborhood?Can she share her faith with an unbeliever? Can a female Christian even dare to lead someone to Christ? Can she share her faith, and edify the Church..?[that is the functional community that is the common union of the church.]
Can a woman comfort a sister, or another brother in great grief? Can she love, and encourage the hurting? Can a woman resist the power of demons, and exercise her faith to withstand their evil? Could she , say, pray to expel their evil over her children, and rebuke them, or should she capitulate because she was born to be a mother, but not a child of God?
Could a woman proclaim that Jesus is the undisputed Lord and Master over all Creation, and is returning one day to punish those who have rejected His Authority, and translate His own to Eternal Joy?.....Oh..that would be preaching, wouldn't it?......Well, I mean in a most feminine way, in keeping with her submission, of course.
The anointing is Isaiah 61. The church is not the meeting! The church is not the meeting! The meeting always follows the common union of The redeemed, right in the blood, sweat and tears of everyday life..diapers and teenagers. We are one in Christ. We all have the grace to attain to everything in Isaiah 61...This is the
[b]MINISTRY[/b]...NEITHER MALE, NOR FEMALE.
Elders are always plural in a Bible based Church..without a leader among equals...but plurally equal. They insure that the Unity of the Spirit is preserved. They also feed, protect, and manifest the Lordship of Jesus in the body that God has made them overseers of.
A sister has no authority here. [b]The ministry is not just the "Pastor!"[/b] The only place a Pastor was found, was rebuked by John the Apostle, as loving the "Preeminence!" The "Pastor", as an entity is inherently unscriptural, and is the vessel that brought this Clergy/Laity scourge to us in the first place. ..pastors....plural....overseers.....Shepherds!..."Feed my lambs.!"
All of Isaiah 61, none of government. This is the scriptural and honored place for our sisters, We all have an opportunity to be as close to Jesus the Lord as any who have lived before us.
This has been proof texted.[lol]
| 2008/7/24 6:52|
You are asking for sisters to respond to your thread/post. Initially when I saw this title, I did not bother to read it because to me it gets tired, but I decided to read it anyways. Now I have read your original post and the most recent one and none of the others. So what I will say has not be influenced by any other poster or it may echo what others have said.
Women in ministry. What is ministry? Too many think it is preaching to people from the pulpit, leading a congregation. But as I understand ministry it means to serve and that there is a Master somewhere above you. Jesus instructs his disciples that they are to have this mind - in our church conference they call it "servant leadership" in which no church pastor is to Lord himself over his flock: lead but not lord it. Big difference. But I digressed...
To the original question: women in ministry.....I agree females are to leave church leadership to the males - if there are any. The reason I used this qualifier is it has happened that in missionary work sometimes there were no males and the female had to assume this role. However, under normal circumstances, the females are to work with males in whatever needs to be done - as a rule. There are times when males need to butt out, be there to give advice when called upon but otherwise leave them alone. This happens when women are ministering to women and it just ain't proper for men to be closely involved. The opposite is true also when males deal with males on the personal level.
Statistically, females constitute over 50% of the total population which means there are some great needs that need to be met among these females and it just is not always proper for the males to be closely involved in this sphere. This is what females can do and do. But we also need males to support it with their monies and advice.
Brothertom, this whole issue to me is rather ridiculous. Ok, the males are to lead the corporate church - all agreed here. But there are tons of other work to be done to make the world go around. Too many times the problem seems to be "who gets the honor?" and therein lies the problem of this entire issue: everyone is clamoring to get honor for work done or they want to be at the pinnacle of respect. This makes me tired. I say if there is work to be done get with it, do it and don't bother who knows it or whether you get any recognition for it. Let your work be motivated by love for the LORD and people and if people cry 'foul' go somewhere else - this place does not need you. .
Yes, I agree with you Brothertom. This is my piece - not a scholarly one - you did that, no use repeating what has already been said.
Now I must go - do not know if I will have to come back to retract anything, but longtime SI posters will not read anything new from me on this topic.
Bless you, Tom. I do enjoy your balanced, thoughtful posts here on SI. It is a blessing. Now I must quit because my husband wants to use this computer!
| 2008/7/24 9:35||Profile|
Well thought out, Ginny. I think I agree with just about everything you said. You're a smart gal...
There are smart people in Mississippi... who would have thunk it?? :-P
| 2008/7/24 10:46|
There are smart people in Mississippi... who would have thunk it??
Aw, come on, Steve, there are a few more smart ones here in Missippi - I just had the privilege to be taught by them! Now to you yanks - go eat your heart out! :-P
Seriously, since I wrote this post I have been thinking a lot about this issue. I have two major points to share and they all come from observation from my sojourn on this planet for 61 years - no great accomplishment but I have seen a lot of changes during this time. And may I be so bold as to suggest one has seen more changes in the past 100 years then ever before in the history of the world? Why, my grandfather, who was born in 1900, did not believe man ever landed on the moon. While this sounds ridiculous, it is not when you consider that the concept of the automobile was still only a dream when he was born.
OK, now to my observations.
Feminism has taken a great hold on western Christianity during the past century and more so in the recent 50 years. And one can only ask "why the shift?" I seriously doubt there would have been any serious research done to find out why because you will have to ask some sexist questions which will likely offend some and no corporation will want to co-sponsor such a research project.
I suggest it is because females have this innate desire to be with males, do their work and this need has not been satisfied in childhood. Allow me to explain.
I grew up on a working farm. Dad had a diverse operation in growing food crops as well as raising livestock and fowl. As the oldest child - with no brothers - I was expected to help Dad on the farm. And I did: I gathered, crated thousands of eggs; fed the calves, the chickens; assisted the birthing of baby pigs; milked cows twice a day - rain or shine, hot or cold, mud and no mud; cleaned out the dairy barn after milking; drove tractor doing all kinds of jobs like baling hay/straw, discing corn stalks, etc. Dad taught me how to burn brush piles with gasoline, dock sheep tails. I climbed trees, straw bale piles in the barn, built tunnels in the straw bales. In all this we learned that work needs to be done and it did not depend on well you liked to do it. If we complained we learned THAT is something you did not do. Period! You did it.
Now fast forward to adulthood. When I see females wanting to work in construction, be linemen for an utility company, I think they must be crazy! and I also think they must never have worked on a productive farm: if they would have the desire to do those things would not exist. It was OK to do that as a child but now that we are adults we go to do 'nicer' things and leave that to the MEN! They are made for that, not women! We are all to happy to take the back seat and let them lead! (I do not know that any in my peer group is a feminist because we all grew up in the same rural culture, working hard with Dad, and perhaps some brothers - if you were lucky).
Working hard like this with Dad taught us much: an appreciation for their leadership in all areas of life, be it spiritual (working together gave us many opportunities to discuss the serious issues of life) or physical (my Dad did not allow us girls to do any heavy lifting, saying this will impair your childbearing ability when you become an adult!). We learned by association to be submissive and that we are helpers. Now, how many young modern females can say they have experienced what I did? Very few.
Point #2: I will be using marriage as an analogy to show how cooperation works for the best in any project, and hence its principles apply to the function of the corporate church.
Every male has within his being some gaps that is best filled by a female. These gaps were made, they did not occur because of the fall in the garden. And every women also has gaps and strengths. It works best when you have a couple marry who compliment each other, where the female can fill in the gaps that exist in the male, working together to get the job done and to not worry who gets the credit for it because both know it requires 100% cooperation to complete it successfully.
My husband and I grow tomatoes hydroponically in greenhouses. He tells people he could not do it without me, and I say I could NOT do it without him. The reason for this is because of our innate strengths and interests. My Dh is good in operating the mechanical things (and I am a perfect klutz in this area); and I am skilled in observing the condition of the plants and can easily detect when something needs attention and needs changing. We have learned the hard way to NOT dismiss any red flags that one will see - we have done that to our hurt. We have also learned to take it all seriously, even when the other did not understand it; and no one will imagine a red flag because this work is too serious! The bottom line is that both of us want this thing to succeed and work to this end.
Now, is this not the way the church should operate? All submit to the Master and to each other, working for the common good, recognizing leadership roles as God intended and then get to work? not caring who gets credit for what? Did Jesus not teach us that what is done in secret is what will earn the heavenly reward?
My thoughts....and can't you tell I love males?! God gave me five of them: a husband and four sons! :-) All this besides a loving dad and a baby brother who actually grew up - eventually!
EDIT: I did not finish my point although it is inferred.
As the general population shifted from rural to urban, children no longer were exposed to their dad and the work involved in making a living. Urban children do not know what work nor what sweat is apart from football. Working together with dad, seeing crops grow or fail, seeing the animals or fowls reproduce and grow with your assistance does something to a child's growth, developement and appreciation for God's creation and for its order, whether it be man or beast. This has been lost and methinks this will facilitate some of the gross misconceptions of life in human relationships, be it in the home or church. Having said this, rural children also need a saviour and learn to submit to Him. ginnyrose
| 2008/7/24 13:42||Profile|
Now to you yanks - go eat your heart out!
Growing up on the NC / TN border hardly qualifies me to be a yank! lol... I hope you were talking to someone else when you said that!
| 2008/7/24 13:52|
I hope you were talking to someone else when you said that!
I am. But I had no one particular person in mind; least of all you. Now have a good day with your boys! :-)
| 2008/7/24 14:56||Profile|
I was being light hearted, my dear... :-)
| 2008/7/24 16:48|
| Women in ministry?|
[b][size=medium][color=003399]There is no real question. God’s word is very clear, almost blindingly bright to some. [/color][/size][/b]
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. (1Co 14:34-37)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (1Ti 2:11-12)
So does any think them self spiritual or a prophet?
So what is ministry, church, subjection and authority?
A womens ministry is most blessed if she is hidden. Listen to The Hidden Woman by Denny Kenaston
Llewellyn van der Merwe
| 2008/10/20 8:40||Profile|
Democratic Republic of Congo
| Re: Women in ministry?|
Hi great to join you guys on this subject we often err from the reality of the literature of scripture we some time goes about to try to reinterpret scriptures as though it was needed, i will say amen!!! llewellyn made a good commentary on the subject and nowhere in the bible it is mention that Christian need necessary to study theology to understand scriptures remember that scripture were given to ordinary men and women just like us. abiding in the literature side of scripture with the help of the Holy spirit is the safest place to be. let's take quoted passage just as it is.
| 2008/11/11 10:29||Profile|
| Re: WOMEN DO MINISTER|
When I think of ministry, my thoughts go to the ministry of the Holy Spirit Himself, where it seems that much opposition proceeds from many who perceive ministry as stemming almost entirely from the "meeting", and the role of the Pastors, or Shepherds,in the meeting, or their positions of authority within the church as a whole.
To this I wholeheartedly agree: Women have no authority in oversight or doctrine, or over a man in any way.I have not once witnessed a church, or "ministry", where a woman was leading, where there was not error. Women are the weaker vessel, and do not possess the ability or anointing to do so.
Having said this, let me state my position. First of all, contrary to the clergy laity model, the meeting is not the Church, nor does the meeting proceed the Church. The meeting always follows the community...the natural homes and jobs , centered around the saved; the redeemed. Because there is not a community, but a meeting, the Church has disintegrated into a gathering of spectators that usually barely know one another. Love has sunk to the form of the handshake and the "HUG", and really is no body at all. The "Moose" lodge, and the junior league of commerce probably have more friendship and interaction than your local church, regardless of it's size.
Ministry, or the role of the Church, is not to listen to a man talk about the Lord, or the Bible, but is indeed the Lord, the Spirit, within us, expressing Himself through us, to bear FRUIT. LOVE, JOY, PEACE, COMFORT...and so on. Teaching , and the installation of edifying faith by the preaching of the Word, based on sound doctrine and the Bible, is monumental, and vastly important, to ground and mature us all....as the body edifies itself unto Love....but it is a tool, not the Substance of the Church.
The substance of the Church, is the individuals who walk with God, and the Possessors of God Himself...IF..they are Born again from Heaven.
So, saying this, are not ONE-HALF of this Body Sisters?...Can a sister comfort the Brokenhearted, with the Love of Jesus flowing from her?,,Can a sister share her faith, and lead another to Christ?[..Many, many mighty men of God were so lead by a sister, and believed through their ministry..] Can she pray for the forlorn, or desperate?...Can she share her faith in any way??,,,say at the marketplace...or is she to be in silence..and with hold it? Can she strengthen the body, by acts of mercy , and allow the loving compassions of Christ to flow from her?
Can she speak of her faith to another about the Fear of Christ Jesus, and His immanent return??..or should she be silent?
Can a woman possess the Holy Spirit too...and what if she is gifted by the Lord..as Phillips daughters who prophesied? Is she to deny the gifting?...and that is to saying nothing of the many other giftings. What if the gift of healing fell upon a holy sister..and your baby was deathly sick?..would you allow her to pray for your child?..Well if you believed that women should never be in ministry, I guess you would not. I think I know better...and history has proven it out, over and over again.
No leadership, or authority over men. All of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who is neither male nor female, nor partial to any. We have abandoned the body with this clergy laity heresy. We are one body...and half are women...as God would have it, and Love flows through them to bear fruit to God, the same as the male part.
One day we will return to the body, and the Shepherds, always plural, and un-hired un-professional..[unpaid non-hirelings..] always men, will return us to one body, one faith, one Lord...male and female.
| 2008/11/11 11:29|