| Poster | Thread | BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | It is really strange, how people can look directly at verses and totally ignore them. This topic of "women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:
1 Tim 2:12 [b]But I suffer NOT a woman TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.
Rev 2:20 [color=FF0000]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because THOU SUFFERREST that [b]WOMAN Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,[size=medium]TO TEACH[/size][/b]and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[/color]
Jesus and Paul are in agreement (as some people try to say they weren't)
1 Cor 14:34 [b]Let your women keep silence IN THE CHURCHES[/b]: for it is [b]NOT PERMITTED[/b] unto them to speak; but they are [b]COMMANDED[/b] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
That is clear, and plain as day. |
|  2008/6/27 11:04 | Profile | rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330
| | Re: | | Quote:
BlazedbyGod wrote:
It is really strange, how people can look directly at verses and totally ignore them. This topic of "women being silent in the Churches" is just as clear in scripture as is Jesus Christ being Lord. Even Jesus himself taught that he was against women teaching:
1 Tim 2:12 [b]But I suffer NOT a woman TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.
Rev 2:20 [color=FF0000]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because THOU SUFFERREST that [b]WOMAN Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,[b][size=medium]TO TEACH[/size][/b] [/b] and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[/color]
Jesus and Paul are in agreement (as some people try to say they weren't)
1 Cor 14:34 [b]Let your women keep silence IN THE CHURCHES[/b]: for it is [b]MOT PERMITTED[/b] unto them to speak; but they are [b]COMMANDED[/b] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
That is clear, and plain as day.
Take 2 scriptures out of context and try to destroy with others with our so called -"thus saith the Lord". -
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that "a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff." And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, "Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women." This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co 11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.
But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.
But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Ge 3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.
I believe Adam Clark here is closer to the meaning in context, at least in the spirit of Love.
respectfully submitted by rbanks |
| | 2008/6/27 11:20 | Profile |
| | Re: | | rbanks... just because you say he took 2 verses out of context doesnt make it so.
And Adam Clark is wrong. This is nothing more than his opinion.
Krispy |
| | 2008/6/27 11:28 | | BlazedbyGod
Member
Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | Quote:
rbanks wrote:
Take 2 scriptures out of context and try to destroy with others with our so called -"thus saith the Lord". -
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches - This was a Jewish ordinance; women were not permitted to teach in the assemblies, or even to ask questions. The rabbins taught that "a woman should know nothing but the use of her distaff." And the sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, as delivered, Bammidbar Rabba, sec. 9, fol. 204, are both worthy of remark and of execration; they are these: ישרפו דברי תורה ואל ימסרו לנשים yisrephu dibrey torah veal yimsaru lenashim, "Let the words of the law be burned, rather than that they should be delivered to women." This was their condition till the time of the Gospel, when, according to the prediction of Joel, the Spirit of God was to be poured out on the women as well as the men, that they might prophesy, i.e. teach. And that they did prophesy or teach is evident from what the apostle says, 1Co 11:5, where he lays down rules to regulate this part of their conduct while ministering in the church.
But does not what the apostle says here contradict that statement, and show that the words in chap. 11 should be understood in another sense? For, here it is expressly said that they should keep silence in the church; for it was not permitted to a woman to speak. Both places seem perfectly consistent. It is evident from the context that the apostle refers here to asking questions, and what we call dictating in the assemblies. It was permitted to any man to ask questions, to object, altercate, attempt to refute, etc., in the synagogue; but this liberty was not allowed to any woman. St. Paul confirms this in reference also to the Christian Church; he orders them to keep silence; and, if they wished to learn any thing, let them inquire of their husbands at home; because it was perfectly indecorous for women to be contending with men in public assemblies, on points of doctrine, cases of conscience, etc. But this by no means intimated that when a woman received any particular influence from God to enable her to teach, that she was not to obey that influence; on the contrary, she was to obey it, and the apostle lays down directions in chap. 11 for regulating her personal appearance when thus employed. All that the apostle opposes here is their questioning, finding fault, disputing, etc., in the Christian Church, as the Jewish men were permitted to do in their synagogues; together with the attempts to usurp any authority over the man, by setting up their judgment in opposition to them; for the apostle has in view, especially, acts of disobedience, arrogance, etc., of which no woman would be guilty who was under the influence of the Spirit of God.
But - to be under obedience, as also saith the law - This is a reference to Ge 3:16 : Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. From this it is evident that it was the disorderly and disobedient that the apostle had in view; and not any of those on whom God had poured out his Spirit.
I believe Adam Clark here is closer to the meaning in context, at least in the spirit of Love.
respectfully submitted by rbanks
So I guess you believe Adam Clarke, over the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul-that is all you have asserted.
1 Tim 2:12 But I suffer NOT a woman [b]TO TEACH[/b], nor to usurp authority over the man, but to BE IN SILENCE.
That says nothing about them learning, it speaks of them TEACHING.(over the man)
And Paul was no Rabbi, thus he was not referring to some Old Jewish rabbinic tradition-this is for the CHURCHES of God-not the synagogue.
And in Cor 14 before Paul ever starts telling them to ask their husbans at home-he started off by says " Let your women keep silent in the Churches for it is NOT permitted unto the [b]TO SPEAK[/b].." then he goes on to talk about women LEARNING BY ASKING THEIR HUSBANDS at home.
They were not permitted to teach, as in be the teacher, AND they were permitted not to "speak" as in asking questions. Forbidden to teach, forbidden to speak.
Or perhaps I should ask-what does 1 Tim 2:12 mean when he says: I suffer (allow) NOT a woman to TEACH, NOR to ursurp authority over the man, but to be in SILENCE.
What does" I do not allow(permit) women to TEACH mean rbanks?
I also find it amusing that you say I took two scriptures out of context, but yet you put "thus saith the Lord" in my mouth( I never said that) -when I can guarantee that noone on this forum heard/saw me write that. So I feel worthy to be lied on by thee, in your means to justify scripture by Adam Clark, versus clear truth revealed by Jesus Christ and Paul his chosen apostle without any error in scripture.
Do we need men's commentary to understand that Christ is the Lord-or what "thus saith Adam Clark"?
Why were there no women apostles then? How come there are no women writers in the New Testament Books of the Bible? How come Mary, neither Jesus's mother, nor Madgnella, have a Gospel? or an epistle? How come the lady who wiped his feet with her hair doesn't have a gospel or an epistle? How come prophetess is not listed among the apostle,prophet, evangelist, teacher, and pastor in Ephesians?
Is God against women, no,does God love women, yes but he did not choose women to lead his Church, nor to teach men. Elder women are told to teach younger women-but they are forbidden from teaching men or usurping authority over the man.
Is not this written to the Church, speaking of women who have God's Spirit:
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 [b]Every man praying or prophesying, having his head COVERED, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head UNCOVERED dishonoureth her head:[/b]
If there is no difference as you others have said: Then why does the man not need to cover his head, BUT THE WOMAN DOES NEED TO COVER HER HEAD in Prayer or prophesying?
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For [b]a man[/b] indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as [b]HE IS THE IMAGE AND GLORY of GOD[/b]: but the woman is the glory of THE MAN.
Who is the image and Glory of God? |
| | 2008/6/27 12:16 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
So I guess you believe Adam Clarke, over the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul-that is all you have asserted.
I find it comical that some folks, when confronted with the clear black & white teachings of scripture, will run out and start quoting from commentaries that agree with them on whatever the particular issue is that is being debated.
Well... got news for everyone... commentaries are not scripture. Even Matthew Henry didnt get it right all the time.
But reading many of the threads on this forum one would come to the conclusion that commentaries carry as much weight as scripture.
Nothing wrong with commentaries. I have love Matthew Henry. But this Adam what's his face is wrong on this issue. Period.
Krispy |
| | 2008/6/27 13:03 | | BlazedbyGod
Member
Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462
| | Re: | | Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
So I guess you believe Adam Clarke, over the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul-that is all you have asserted.
I find it comical that some folks, when confronted with the clear black & white teachings of scripture, will run out and start quoting from commentaries that agree with them on whatever the particular issue is that is being debated.
Well... got news for everyone... commentaries are not scripture. Even Matthew Henry didnt get it right all the time.
But reading many of the threads on this forum one would come to the conclusion that commentaries carry as much weight as scripture.
Nothing wrong with commentaries. I have love Matthew Henry. But this Adam what's his face is wrong on this issue. Period.
Krispy
I also find it amusing, that this Adam guy, got it wrong just like the first Adam-lol. Maybe Adam didn't learn from Adam- seems like Adam is always falling for the same thing. :-) |
| | 2008/6/27 13:07 | Profile |
| | Re: | | ...and just a side note, I dont like it much when people post 3 pages from a commentary right in the middle of a discussion on here. I dont know about anyone else, but I generally skip right over it. I hardly ever read them.
If someone has an opinion on an issue I just want to know their opinion, and why they think that way... how they came to that conclusion... etc. I couldn't care less what your favorite commentator has to say about it.
Whats so common about 'taters anyway?
Krispy |
| | 2008/6/27 13:08 | | MrBillPro
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:
I find it comical that some folks, when confronted with the clear black & white teachings of scripture, will run out and start quoting from commentaries that agree with them on whatever the particular issue is that is being debated.
Well... got news for everyone... commentaries are not scripture. Even Matthew Henry didnt get it right all the time.
But reading many of the threads on this forum one would come to the conclusion that commentaries carry as much weight as scripture.
Nothing wrong with commentaries. I have love Matthew Henry. But this Adam what's his face is wrong on this issue. Period.
Krispy
Brother this has been my message here forever, these so call theologians carry no more weight or understanding "unless we let them" than we do. Every child of God here has the opportunity to tune into the correct interpretation through the Spirit of the truth, as my sig. lines says there "will" come a day when true worshipers will worship him in Spirit and Truth and I don't think he is talking about any theologian, my guess is he is talking about God.
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| | 2008/6/27 17:47 | Profile | deltadom
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Posts: 2359
Hemel Hempstead
| | Re: | | sorry to put a spanner in the works but what about Teresa Conlon from Times Square
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| | 2008/6/27 22:45 | Profile | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Quote:
"""WHAT?
What is all the IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST, IN CHRIST o.k. we get it, we as Christians are in Christ."""
The whole world is in Christ, The important part is the Christ in you. That is who the Father sees' when He accepts us as a sons'.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
I am sorry the, "in Christ" statement upsets you.
For I have no glory, except in the Cross of Christ. Any glory I have is by the Christ in me.
He is the only hope of glory I have. I have no confidence in my flesh and hate the sin that is in my flesh, but it is no longer I who sin but sin that dwells in me. "Who has set me free from this body of sin, Praise God, Jesus Christ that is in me.
Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
But we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
There are two types of Christians.
Those that believe in the Name of Jesus Christ and are on this earth trying to make themselves better for the Kingdom of God, seeking to clean up their act and be pleasing to God.
And, Those who were before the foundation of the world until now seated in Christ in the heavenlies whom God swore there would be those that entered His Rest. Those that know they can do nothing for the Kingdom that God has not already done for them in Christ Jesus. Their rest is by the Christ God the Father has birthed in them as He swore they should enter His rest.
Luke 10:38-42 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
This is what I mean by Christ in you, and us in Christ: Christ declared, Mary hath chosen the good part. For one thing is needful, this one thing that she has done, to give up herself to the guidance of Christ. The things of this life will be taken away from us, at the furthest, when we shall be taken away from them; but nothing shall separate from the love of Christ, and a part in that love. Men and devils cannot take it away from us, and God and Christ will not. Let us mind the one thing needful more diligently. Seek first the Kingdom of God, Christ being not only on the Throne of God, but also on the Throne of our Hearts an Spirit, by His being Born Again in us making us new creatures in Christ by Him that is now our life. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. "For it is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me". Gal 2:20
In Christ: Phillip
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| | 2008/6/27 22:55 | Profile |
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