Coley: Understood and received. thank you brother.

Brothertom,

Right after I had posted that bit about the Puritans, I thought it might be distracting so I removed it...but not before you grabbed some of it!

MC

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Mike Compton

I understand MC: I think all of us are trying to work this out, and slot this in it's right place, while we walk to inherit and expand the Kingdom of Heaven under the King..


I also understand that your reasoning was, and rightfully is, that the issue of the murder of the innocents is not the primary mission of the Kingdom of Heaven, though it is certainly a torrential and fiery assault on all that represents Life. I think that you were trying to Establish the fact that the Puritan's had an admirable balance between their Spiritual life, and their obligations to the society and government they were living under. Point well taken.[minus the caveat I addressed, and the probable motive for your belated withdrawal]


This brings to mind , as you noted, the tendency to become obsessed or dogmatic while pursuing such a quest for justice, or the substitution of such a righteous crusade as a motive and means to please God, solely by the participating and the doing of it.


There have been several people who have murdered the surgeons performing Abortions, and many, many "clinics" burned to the ground by the "faithful." It is absurd to think of our Lord Jesus reacting to the wicked in such a way. Standing against Abortion in itself, has nothing to do with honoring God, though God hates murder, and thereby Abortion. Walking with Jesus and submitting to His Holy Spirit disciplines is Honoring Him.


"They follow the Lamb wherever He Goes." That is pleasing to the Father. The tsunami of genocide, war, plague, famine and suffering in Africa ......Now...is just as brutal, and the Lord places the burden on men, not those involved in the Lord's work that would like to. To serve and pray for Africa, or for the unborn, the Lordship of Jesus in our lives is the pinnacle we seek. The Godly mother and housewife may be far closer to Jesus' desire, than the most ardent of Preachers and oppositionists to Abortion. It is about this relationship to His Son, that he divides the righteous and unrighteous, not a cause or a crusade.


Never the less, it is a monumental sin that our Country, and our neighbors endorse each and every day, and it is in our face, whether we like it or not. Someone more important than the media is watching, too.


As Christians we are not to strive, and let the Peace of God rule in our hearts, and we must be led of His Spirit. While we are led into service, and a quiet life, perhaps we are called to intercede for the helpless, or even to act in some God directed way to see this abomination forever cease. If not, there can be a tendency for those that do, to judge them for their passivity.


Probably most of the protesters against the statute of Molech are not born again, unsaved, as it is a living crusade today taken up by the Pope, and his company..[ one billion strong.] This does not affect the Christian either way, and if we strive to honor Jesus, in all that we do or think or respond to, it must be by Faith, and that is always intensly personal, and hidden in the heart of the believing individual.

Hi brother Mike and thank you for your response.



Brother Mike, I do think that Senator Obahma is a national leader for us(as citizens of the US), and especially now since he is in a highly visible position of being a candidate for President.



Because of this, I think we have to take great care in how we speak about him, or other leaders, in speaking out against evil in our society. One passage in particular that comes to mind is 2Peter 2:9-11.





"Hard to tell when it is so clouded in off the record rhetoric..."



Isn't this even more reason to exercise caution in our reponse though(Proverbs 18:13)?




I had shared the message from pastor Wurmbrand before. I think some of the stories there can be encouraging to us here, in showing how believers there have responded and lived in the face of evil.




Grace and peace to all in Christ.

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Dear Chris,

Brother thank you for being faithful to keep these things before us. I know them as well and generally am just as inclined to bring them forth, to remembrance in these kinds of discussions.

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Mike Balog

Hi everyone.


Over the weekend I came across a group of people preaching, and because of some things I had heard them say before, I questioned them about whether it was permissible for Christians to bring accusations against their leaders(of government). And during our exchange the speaker said different things about the President, to accuse him.



Later that night, as I was heading to the train station to go home I came across a sign that had been placed on a pole along the street, advertising a speech about the unjust authority of the State, or how the philosophical idea of a State authority was wrong.




Those are two responses.




I have thought about the story that Pastor Wurmbrand tells in the message I shared here with you all, of an old Christian woman in Communist Russia, whose son had been tortured and killed by the communists. And her response to the communist officer that confronted her while she was praying in the snow.



I just recently got a book that he had published under a pseudonym. The book is called ' Jesus - Freind to Terrorists' and I started reading it today on the bus ride home. I was struck by this story he tells of a Christian in Japan who had started the trade union movement there and how he diffused a possible strike by telling the workers to



'"Rather, send a delegation to the president of the comapny, bow politely before him, and say 'we regret that we were so heartless as not to realise the difficulties through which you are passing. Our children are used to deprivations, while your's aren't. We will gladly work for you without taking any salary just to show you our faithfulness to the enterprise."'






Maybe there is some similar radical way in which the Lord Jesus wants to triumph here, through us also.

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Christopher Joel Dandrow

Hi Chris! I just wanted to ask you; Who should we submit to?...McCain, Bush or Obama?


Is it OK for us to evaluate their policies in light of the
Word of God?



Should we be silent if their policies and the implementation of their ideas hurt or kill people?


It is definitely not permissible in Communist countries. I returned from China last winter. Did you know that they demand a "one child" policy, outside of the farming country?[4 children for the drone workers]


Did you know that this policy is often enforced by kidnap and mandated Abortion? Did you know, that multitudes of Chinese women , each year, have enforced Abortion, up and until the time of delivery?


Did you know that if you are pregnant illegally, and refuse methods to remove [b]IT[/b] from your womb, they will take [b]IT[/b], with any means at their disposal? Did you know that they will hunt a woman down, and imprison her, until [b]It [/b] is dead, and then send her back to work again, with penalties for resistance?


Oh, but my conscience of citizenship with integrity would never allow me to be critical of my leaders,,,,it's just wrong...just wrong!



Your logic, is certainly not Christian, in this matter. I'm not sure what it is.



Did you ever wonder why the Christians in early Rome, lived in the Catacombs beneath the city? Think about it. Did you ever Consider, that the one thing that Rome demanded, was to bow their knee, to Caesar, as Lord and lawgiver?, and they knew that some things , in the submission to civil authority are unthinkable, and impossible for them to do. They would rather die, first.


You blatantly confuse forgiving our persecutors with submission to them. I'll always criticize and oppose their ungodly policies, for they are of the Devil, yet I will always forgive them, when they trespass against me. There is a difference, Chris.


I also will pray for those in Authority, for the sake of the Church, no matter what they believe, for I know that their heart and will, is in the Hand of God's will, in JESUS! I prayed for Bill Clinton, in this way. Does it mean I respect this vile Whore-monger , Liar and Abortionist? You may, but I do not. I do not respect Obama's many Anti-Christ positions, but I will pray for him, as President, just as I did for my President, Bill Clinton.


The early Church prayed after James' death; Peter was freed. I'll bet they prayed for Herod too, and forgave Him. I'll bet, in their prayers for this ruler, they asked for protection for their children, and their lives. I'll say that God heard, and took Herod away in the most humiliating way.


Did you know that Abortions decreased under Clinton, and were up under George Bush #1? Odd, huh? Christians woke up under their leftist ideology and sought God for protection of the Church.


If Christians won't criticize and rebuke evil in the ideas of our leaders, who will, Chris?



Thank you for your concern, and thoughts, though.

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Mike Balog

Hi Brothertom,



Brothertom, about this,

'Who should we submit to?...'




I had written something before in this thread and I would like if I may to post it again in reply here:



"I do think we are to submit to the authority of the rulers of our land(as citizens) in as much as they do not require of us to do something which is contrary to the laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. And I do think that would include giving them due benevolence and respect(1 Peter 2:17) for the authority that they have, from God Himself."







My concern here is that we do not expose ourselves to condemnation in the things we say publicly about others, or our leaders in government especially.








"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [i]are they[/i], self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;"


- 2 Peter 2:9-12(KJV)




[i]...they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities[/i]




[i]...angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.[/i]





According to Strong's, the word translated 'speak evil' here is:



G987
βλασφημέω
blasphēmeō
blas-fay-meh'-o
From G989; to vilify; specifically to speak impiously: - (speak) blaspheme (-er, -mously, -my), defame, rail on, revile, speak evil.





Of 'railing', that it is



G989
βλάσφημος
blasphēmos
blas'-fay-mos
From a derivative of G984 and G5345; scurrilous, that is, calumnious (against man), or (specifically) impious (against God): - blasphemer (-mous), railing.




And accusation, that it is



G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.





I do think that the scripture teaches that men in authority in goverment are in a place of high honor, even if they do not use the authority rightly(Dan 4:36, 17, 1 Pet 2:17).

EDIT: 'rightly' or I should say, even if they do not use that authority rightly in every way.




John Gill says of the phrase [i]honour the king[/i] in 1 Peter 2:17(taken from e-sword)


[b]honour the king[/b]; Caesar, the Roman emperor, though a wicked, persecuting Nero, and so any other king or governor; who, so far as he acts the part of a civil magistrate, preserves the peace, the property, and liberty of his subjects, is a terror to evil works, and an encourager of good ones, and rules according to the laws of God, and civil society, is deserving of great honour and esteem from men; and which is to be shown by speaking well of him; by a cheerful subjection to him; by an observance of the laws, and by payment of tribute, and doing everything to make him easy, and honourable in his government: advice much like this is given by Isocrates (f),

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Christopher Joel Dandrow