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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


LiveforGod wrote:
15) God does not hear sinners
24) Those who sin cannot enter heaven

Just to make things clear, All Christians are not sinners anymore, Praise God for that!!!

Sinners are they that employ themselves in sin, we do not.

7) Those who sin are spiritually dead

Not realy, ones very own first accountable sin(willful, intentional) brings spiritualy death.

The relationship with God through Christ brings spiritual life. We may sin, but that does not sever our relationship with God.
[b]1John 2:1[/b] [color=990000]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[/color]

 2008/6/12 15:03Profile

Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 299


Hey there Thommy. How are you doing? Im sorry to interumpt here, given the situation that you where writing to Logic, but may I just ask you a question? I took your silence for a Yes. :-)

Thommy, are you Holly? Is there Holliness in you?
Please do not answer me, I know not your heart, but God does.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" Hebrews 12:14.

Will you see God? answer God. God bless you my dear friend, and may he use you greatly for the advancement of his kingdom.


 2008/6/12 15:05Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Compton wrote:
"No one has yet answered my as to why they can't stop sinning? And if they can't, why would that be a sin??"

The second question seems unhelpful to me because it is framed not from scripture but from fallible logic. (No pun intended.)

The point of the 2nd question is from the basis that all sin is voluntary, & if you can't stop sinning, how would that which can't be stopped be a sin?

There are plenty of examples in life of not being able to do the right thing even though you know what it is.

Okay, but then the responsibility of doing that right thing falls off because of the inability to perform the right thing. Therefore, one is innocent when one can not do right.

A man stumbles in business and is unable to pay back his debt. He knows full well the scriptures position on debt, and also believes God wants him to have the power to do the right thing...but alas he can't.

He brought the consequences on himself.

Just as we bring the consequences on ourselves, we are still able to never do what brought those consequences.
We are also able to ask for help and do the requirements of the one who helps.

The bible says he who borrows and does not repay is wicked.

That is because he knows that he should pay back, He knows better but still continues to not repay. He is as good as thief.

The bible does not say he who borrows and sincerely hopes he could repay is not wicked because of his sincerity. Thus he wakes up each morning knowing he is wicked because at best he can only inadequately service his debt.

The fact that he is doing something to clear the debt makes him not wicked.

Though he loves the Lord, he essentially is wicked according to scripture without the power to be otherwise.

He is only called wicked in Matthew 18:32 after He was forgiven but didn't forgive others in return.
If he was wicked, he wouldn't love the lord, as you say, though he is still a "sinner" for coming into debt.

In Scripture, there is a usually a difference between sinners & the wicked.
Sinners are those who employ themselves in sin, the wicked are those who should know better but still continue in sin & actually do what they should know is wrong.

Now of course refuting this example is possible, if you define sin as intention to sin, and not haplessness.

The sin is doing that which put you into debt you know you couldn't even start to repay. Being in debt is not the sin; unless you continue to refuse to attempt to repay.However, this nuanced dodging one another is not helpful to the person who is grieving over their failings.
They will not be relieved to know that what they can not help they are not responsible for.
Please re-fraise.

They still feel broken hearted in the way they have failed their Lord. Even with love at work in their hearts, they still discover corruption in their character that they were insensitive to before, but is now apparent to them, driving them once again to their knees to find rest in Christ.

We are only accountable to sins of which we know about.
When we first find out about a "sin" we were not accountable to it beforehand.
In other words, we did not actually sin doing that which is a sin if we don't know it's a sin.
This is called sanctification.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin; we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

As many put it here, within the disciple of Christ, submission can be perfect, and love can be completed. Still we know God is truly holy, not just in perfect intention but in every way it is possible to be holy. We on the other hand, even with perfect obedience, and love governing in us, still have no hope of having peace with our holy God without the cross of Christ and his imputed righteousness. To differ on this basic belief of what God's holiness demands, and what sin really is, makes any agreement in this conversation of 'perfection' difficult to achieve.

This is the point. People think that when they find that they just sinned, really did not sin.
They did not willfully, intentionally choose to come short of the Standard.
They just found themselves to already be short of the Standard, which is not a sin if unknown to be there. Though Christ, they are able to meet the Standard and never come short again.
The sin is to stay short of the Standard once you find yourself there.

There may yet still be a productive discussion helping one another to understand what it means to share in not only the death of Christ, but also his life...but the belief that we can be as holy in ourselves as God is in himself holy, without any imputation seems to me to be a kind of Pelagianism---which hardly requires scripture to refute. Mere common modesty will do.

I am not implying that.

Now this conversation is admittedly frustrating for me. By participating in it, people who hate sin, take the risk that they will be misunderstood as having made peace with their own sin, and people who love the Lord, take the risk that they care only about being justified in their sin.

True, amen. I may suggest that they take this in prayer and ask with seeking as to what sin really is and what we as Christians are actually accountable to.

Sanctification is not in sin or in the continuation of sin; it is only cleansing & purging the unknown faults, weaknesses, and shortcomings.
We are not under law but grace.

But then again, maybe I am misunderstanding you Logic.

I hope that I am making sense to you and all who read this.

I am not a heretic.
I just want people to come to a better understanding of their own walk with Christ!!!

 2008/6/12 15:11Profile


There is some very bizzare things being said on this particular thread.


 2008/6/12 15:53

Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


I agree with what Krispy wrote, there are some very bizzare things that have been written in this thread. I have decided that it is no longer appropriate for my teen age sons to read. I have told them not to come to the forums any more... threads like this are confusing and I do not want them to be swayed by untruth. Its really very sad...

God Bless

 2008/6/12 16:16Profile

Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60


Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. – ESV

What I love so much about this verse is the context in which it sits. We are reminded of our brothers and sister and the feats that were achieved or they actions they took all b/c they knew God was faithful (11:11By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.) It’s so beautiful how God works. He allows us to see that we need to trust in Him and His promises, even though we are His enemy and hated His law. We even know that the OT saints mentioned in Hebrews 11 made stupid mistakes, and not just once, but numerous times.
Then He sends His Son in our/their likeness to be our propitiation our substitutionary atonement. God could have done that and left us alone… “a source of propitiation now see ya folks later”… but He didn’t. He spoke through men (moved by the Holy Spirit) and revealed that His Son, our Jesus, did what He did, not for further fame (Like God needs any), not for vain glory, but “for the joy that was set before him”. (soliloquy: why joy?)
This God we serve is more beautiful than any of us know (whether saved for two years or twenty). And I think the beauty shines so much brighter when held up to Hebrews 11..the “faith” chapter…that really is just telling us if we want to be a “good” look unto the Jesus the perfecter of our faith. Doctrine and theology are very important, but it’s still as simple as looking unto Jesus.


 2008/6/12 16:50Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708


Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust. That is why the Law Maker sent His Son to take away the penalty of Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. So all died from Adam until now without the Son, "Christ in you the hope of Glory", given as the full penalty for all sins on the Cross and healing. 1 Peter 2:24 Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. He did it all, the sin of the world that Adam put upon it, and the sins of all who die because of the penalty of Adam's sin. The sin of the world and the sins of each individual. John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

How do you look for Him? John 16:8 And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: This is the Holy Spirit Comforter separate from the manifestation of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Of whom we have the witness in ourselves. 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/6/12 16:55Profile

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


You would not recognize me if you knew me before I was saved. You would not recognize me inside or out. Everyday I am shedding more and more of my former sinful and wicked self. And yet everyday that I am drawn closer to God I see more and more sinful and wicked things in me. But I am much less sinful than I was…yet I see myself as more so at the same time. I am saved by Christ alone. Nothing do I bring. My best, most sinless, most perfect hour is a filthy stinking pile of dirty rags.

When I pray I ask forgiveness for my sins…just like He told me to.

When I am brought before God at judgment…if I can talk at all…I will ask Him to have mercy on me…a sinner.

I hate sin…yet I am not without it.
I strive to be perfect…yet I fall short of this goal.

Jesus satisfies both of these requirements. He is and was without sin and He lives in me. He is perfect and He is my life.

It is because of Christ and Christ alone I stand.

Christ our life.

Pray for me saints.


 2008/6/12 16:59Profile

 Re: The battle with sin, and fallen Adam within.

We all have a sinful nature. Death came upon all, through Adam's fall. We are imputed righteousness through the blood, and it is a daily walk.

Perhaps this theology was heated up a bit in the fires of the "once saved always saved" division, where extreme grace is expected in any circumstance. The battle for purity and holiness then becomes a moot point, doesn't it.

Paul cried; "Oh wretched man that I AM, who will deliver me from this body of death!. This was the Adam nature, that he inherited in the womb, that is the "me" nature. The blood was shed for our redemption, for it is appointed for every man to die, and then the judgement.

Our sins are cast away from us, as far as the east is from the west, [if we forsake them and confess them.] but not our natures. They will battle us until the end. "Who will deliver me from this body of death!" The answer is Jesus, as we are faithful unto the end. "He that endures until the end, [b]the same shall be saved.[/b] This is the end, that Paul spoke about in 2 timothy, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, their is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous judge, will give to me on that day, and not to me only, [b]but also to all who have loved His appearing!"[/b]

Paul never thought to intimate that he would or could attain perfection until either on the day of his death, or the day of His return.

And yes, it seems weird to even have the fervor and anger I have seen here. It is not helpful nor relevant, and seems to breed strife and confusion on such a basic foundation as the blood shed for Adam's race.

 2008/6/12 17:31

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


if you are still intentionaly doing things that you know are sin, then why are you doing them?

If you never intentionaly sin, how can you be accountable to them? Unless you continue in them once you know they are sin.

But every one who knows that all are only assountable to those which you know about and intentionaly do. why can't you admitt to the posibility of sinless perfection?

Christinyou wrote:
Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all.

[b]Rom 4:15[/b] [color=990000]Because the law worketh wrath: [b]for where no law is, there is no transgression.[/color]
Rom 7:7b[/b] [color=990000]I had not known sin, but by the law:[/color]
Rom 7:8 Now lawlessness takes its start through the commandment, and from that, it brought about (revealed) in me all that were truly unlawful desires.
Now, when there is no law, there is no lawlessness... [color=990000]For without the law sin was dead.[/color]
Rom 7:9 ...And I was alive when I didn't know the law, but when I heard of that specific commandment ("You shall not lust." v.7), then my affections became known as unlawful, and I died spiritually.

[b]Act 17:30a[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God winked at;[/color]

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust.

We are not under law but grace.
However we are not lawless, we are under the spirit of the law which is love.

Ignorance of the Law does not set you free from the Law, it still carries the penalty of the Law for all. Or the Law Maker would be unjust.

Do you think that Adam & Eve would have been guilty if God never told them not to eat of the tree?
However are you acountable to that which you do not know?
[b]Rom 5:13[/b] [color=990000](For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.[/color]

Again, we are only accountable to sins of which we know about.
When we first find out about a "sin" we were not accountable to it beforehand.
In other words, we did not sin doing that which is a sin if we don't know it's a sin.

Therefore, when we just learn of a certain thing we do to be a sin, we don't do any longer that which we just learned to be a sin. We did not sin though we just learned it was a sin since we were not accountable to it yet. The sin would be to continue in it when we learn it is a sin.
Thus, we remain to be sinless in this process of sanctification.

Remember, we are not under law, but grace.
We are only accountable to sins of which we know about. This means we are innocent of the ones we do not know about.
This is how we remain sinless as Christians.

I don't want to be redundant, but y'all seem to not understand the grace of God.

Sure, we hate sin, but why can't anyone agree that we can stop sinning since sin is optional especialy for christians?

If we can't stop something, it wouldn't be a sin.

 2008/6/12 18:02Profile

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