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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

This post will more than likely be my last on this thread

I did not enter this thread to prove anyone wrong…only to find truth.


I have read through almost 19 pages of discussion on this topic posted on other forums under the name Diolectic. I believe he could very well be you. He (Diolectic) uses the exact same arguments and the same wording as you. I believe all of your questions and concerns have been satisfactorily and correctly answered on those forums as well as here.


".. having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will," Eph 1:11b ESV

As British Bible teacher David Pawson once said of this verse "When God wants to do something, He consults Himself - and no one else".

God can do whatever He wants for His pleasure and it not be arbitrary because He is just, holy, pure, etc…

God is just and fair, therefore what pleases Him is just and fair.

God is perfect and His choices and reasons are perfect...whether He chooses to reveal them to me or not. I cannot find in the Bible where it says He must reveal His ways to me.

Election is not arbitrary because God is not arbitrary.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! Romans 11:33 ESV

Grace and peace my brother.


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/22 13:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
This post will more than likely be my last on this thread

I did not enter this thread to prove anyone wrong…only to find truth.


I have read through almost 19 pages of discussion on this topic posted on other forums under the name Diolectic. I believe he could very well be you. He (Diolectic) uses the exact same arguments and the same wording as you. I believe all of your questions and concerns have been satisfactorily and correctly answered on those forums as well as here.

Diolectic is me also.

I am discussing this on other forums because no one hear can correctly answer the question with out arbitraryyness &/or partiality.
No one can answer them because it violates theire theology.

In all the answeres given, there is no law, rule, principle(guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct) or facts that are compared in order to in order to decide which person God elects or does not elect.

 2008/5/22 14:44Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Forgive me if I don't quite understand the answer you are looking for Logic. But please allow me to show you some things.

Quote:
"Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?"



This is a misunderstanding. The problem is not that God needs to give something He is withholding. The problem is that He has already given to us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness; and we have rejected His provision.

John 9
39. And Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind."
40. Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?"
41. Jesus said to them, "[b]If you were blind, you would have no sin[/b]; but since you say, `We see,' your sin remains.


All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Thus Judgment is imputed: "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18).


God is a God of Justice. However, God is Love, therefore, everything He does is by His own nature. The very same Light that saves a soul from death (salvation) is there very same Light that condemns souls to eternal hell (judgment).

James 2:13
For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; [b]mercy triumphs over judgment[/b].

You see God does not contradict Himself. God is a God of Mercy and a God of Judgment. These are not contrary to one another in God's nature. But indeed, Mercy is "more true" than Judgment. Mercy triumphs over Judgment. Mercy does not cancel the judgment or annul it but rather fulfills it.

As Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

Quote:
Furhtermore, IF Repentance & faith are gifts, how do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.



Faith is born of God, this is true. But we still have to grow in our faith and be transformed by it; by the daily renewing of our minds by the Word of God.

Repentance is the willful submission of man to the Will of God.

And, as I said previously, the problem is that God has already provided and given both of these to all men.


Romans 1
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of [b]men who suppress[/b] the truth in unrighteousness,
19. because that which is known about God is [b]evident within them[/b]; [b]for God made it evident to them[/b].
20. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, [b]have been clearly seen, being understood[/b] through what has been made, so that [b]they are without excuse[/b].


You will see verses like these throughout the NT. God has given all men a measure of faith by which they might be drawn unto Himself through Christ Jesus. Paul speaks about this in Romans 2.


Quote:
If God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, then this whole theory of limited election falls to peaces, aybe even more of their theology.



Allow me to show you something special that is almost never given the light of truth it deserves.

1 Corinthians 2
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. [b]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit[/b]: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


What things has God revealed unto us by His Spirit? Read verse 9 again.


Ephesians 1
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [b]according to the good pleasure of his will[/b],
6. To the praise of [b]the glory of his grace[/b], wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have [b]redemption through his blood[/b], the forgiveness of sins, [b]according to the riches of his grace[/b];
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. [b]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will[/b], according to his good pleasure [b]which he hath purposed in himself[/b]:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to [b]the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will[/b]:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


Now the question you might ask then, is this, "who has God predestined?"

The general rule of thumb is this, "whoever Christ died for."


However, God is not angry at ignorance, see Paul before the freethinkers at Mars hill ...

Acts 17
22. Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. [b]That they should seek the Lord[/b], if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30. [b]And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent[/b]:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man (Jesus Christ) whom he hath ordained; [b]whereof he hath given assurance unto all men[/b], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33. So Paul departed from among them.


God does not judge ignorance or darkness, He judges the Light that is shining in the darkness. That Light which is not consumed by darkness. Even that Light which is the Light of the world, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ who was made sin for us, on our behalf, the Blessed Gift of Repentance and Faith that the Father has given to all men everywhere. According to the Light revealed to each man, shall each man be judged.

The one who says "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess." Shall be judged.

Unlike the publican who, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, "God be merciful to me a sinner."

Jesus said the truth, this man, this sinner, went down to his house justified rather than the other: "for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."


I hope I have properly answered your question to your benefit.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/22 15:24Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Well, that was fun. I just did what I didn't want to do previously. I read just about every thread on this topic ... The previous post I wrote out, I believe, explains a great detail of all of this but still missed the question at first.


To my surprise the more I read Logic's posts the more I liked him :)
(Perhaps, he could've been a bit more gentle in his approach but I understood his purpose.)

And also, the more I read, I found more and more disturbing answers to Logic's questions.


This is such a simple question. It is Free Will vs. Predestination. This is nothing "grey" or "unknown" or "finding fault in God's sovereignty".


How is it that all of you are saying "I am born-again" and not understanding what is being asked here?


Did God toss a "dart of salvation" one day and, by chance, your name got picked? Is this God's good pleasure? Is this His justice?


If our salvation was wholly determined by God's Soveriegn Will, then what is the purpose, might I ask, of such a command as this:

"Choose you this day whom ye will serve!"



Jesus said, John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

So, if God says "I will make you keep my commandments without your choice. Because it is My Will that you shall be righteous and sin no more." Does this mean love is perfected in us?

Look again -- "IF YOU ... "love Me."
and again -- "YOU WILL ... keep My commandments."



Tell me, how did all of you get saved in the first place? Did you wake up one morning and -poof- "Hey, I think I just got born-again! I didn't see that one coming. Golly, I wish God had told me He was going to do that; took me by surprise! He didn't reveal to me it was His Will for me to be saved today."

(Forgive me if I sound sarcastic it is not my intention but I do so only to reflect on such thought.)


Christ came to seek and save the lost. There came a time in your life when you KNEW you were lost, you were DEAD IN YOUR SIN: condemned to a wasted life and eternal hell! How did you come to know this? Because God called you to come out of darkness. How did He call you? He brought the Light of Jesus NEAR to your dark and sinful heart and shined His Righteouness all over your corruption!

JUST AS HE CALLS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE UNTO REPENTANCE THAT ALL MIGHT BE SAVED THAT NONE SHOULD PERISH BUT ALL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE!

So by the measure of faith He has given to all men, even to us, He called to us and said "You are dead in your sin and all the thoughts of your heart are only evil continuously. Come unto Me and I will wash you whiter than snow. I will give you a new heart, a new spirit. I will make you like My Son!"


And what did we lost and broken sinners do?


We did not say "I choose you" as though God were a pokemon.

Neither did we say "I accept you" as though God were a structure of mentally accepted doctrines.

Neither did we say "I love you" as though we could sway God with our emotions.

Neither did we say "I need you" as though Christ was crucified to satisfy our desires.


We DID SAY "I yield to YOUR will. Do with me as YOU will!"


It is as simple as that. Thus, Mercy triumphed over Judgment. Why?

Isaiah 58,
"If because of the sabbath, [u]you turn your foot[/u] ([b]repentance[/b])
From doing [b]your own pleasure[/b] on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from [b]your own ways[/b],
From seeking [b]your own pleasure[/b]
And speaking [b]your own word[/b],

14. Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


Psalm 51
16. For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.


The sacrifice of men to receive forgiveness of sins is a broken spirit and a broken and a contrite heart. A spirit and heart yielded to the will of Him who desires to give Life to all men out of His good pleasure and loving-kindess!


2 Chronicles 7:14
[b]If my people[/b], which are called by my name, shall [b]humble themselves[/b], and [b]pray[/b], and [b]seek my face[/b], and [b]turn from their wicked ways[/b]; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.


What do we have here? The BIG "IF"!
I know what many of you will be saying to yourselves now.
Listen first: What is this scripture? God's CALL to His people... He is calling us to repent, and pray, and turn, and seek.

IF WE WILL! Then HE WILL -- hear and forgive and heal!


It is that simple. The simplicity of Christ.


That we may be one in Christ and He in us. The will of man in harmony with the Will of God. This is the peace we have through Christ.


This one thinks he is righteous -- HE SHALL BE JUDGED!
This one thinks God doesn't exist -- GOD CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!
This one hasn't made up his mind -- HE SHALL BE VOMITTED OUT!

This one is mourning! -- COMFORT HIM!
This one is weak! -- STRENGTHEN HIM!
This one is humble! -- EXALT HIM!
This one is unrighteous! -- I SHALL DECLARE HIM RIGHTEOUS FOR MY NAME's SAKE!
This one is abandoned! -- YOU ARE MINE sayeth the LORD!

Of course, all of this is still dependant on the open door of faith towards God. Let the one who loves sin continue in unrighteousness and the one who is righteous continue in righteousness.


God has chosen all men to be saved. Just as Jesus was anointed to heal every sickness and disease in every person, as it is written, "and the power of the Lord was present to heal them." Many came and gathered and pressed in round about Jesus. But how many reached out took hold of him? how many cried out louder and louder? How many took out the ceiling to be brought near Him?

Logic's question is not one of did God provide a way of salvation (we know it is Jesus).
Neither is he asking if God is evil, but rather, asking many of you if you think God is evil because many of your responses certainly say so. Hence, the assault against this "whimsical, arbitrary Grace". Grace simply isn't scriptural in this manner.

Grace is the "free gift", not the "freely received by those who are called of God gift". We have already established that all men are called of God to repent and be saved but not all do. Not because this is contrary to the Will of God but because it is not convenient for sinners who love their sin and despise the sufferings of the Lamb who was slain!


What shall I say to summarize ...

I was listening to some Paris Reidhead sermons, I love him.

And he made a statement, something like this:

man says, "Do you believe he who has the Son hath eternal life?"

sinner says, "Yes."

man says, "Amen, brother! You're saved!"

sinner says, "Oh? But I have one more question. How does one get the Son?"


All of you have been writing threads on the "do you believe" part and completely missing the "how do you get" part.

And that is what Logic has been trying to get you all to see.


There is more to say about this, of course, but I hope all of this is more precise to the question at first.

Be blessed.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/24 4:12Profile
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re:

I have a question:

Why does one choose God when another rejects Him?

Is it because one is smarter or better at listening or was raised to listen and comprehend differently?

How sad if one had competence, but not the right kind that would persuade them to turn from their sin and trust in Christ. It is a scary thought to think that it is on us to do the persuading of the truth and it is up to the sinner to find a way within his intelligence to agree and respond.

Is God sovereign in and over all creation? Did He knit us together in our mother's womb? Of course!!!

If you are going to extend out the view that we can all just choose if we want to lest God be a tyrant, then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?

Is God completely sovereign or not?


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2008/5/24 8:33Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

To no one in particular….

The following is from J.C. Ryle (a Calvinist) on election


“The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect, but because they “neglect the great salvation,” and because they will not repent and believe.”

“For one thing, the doctrine of Election was never meant to destroy man’s responsibility for the state of his own soul. The Bible everywhere addresses men as free-agents, as beings accountable to God, and not as mere logs, and bricks, and stones. It is false to say that it is useless to tell men to cease to do evil, to learn to do well, to repent, to believe, to turn to God, to pray. Everywhere in Scripture it is a leading principle that man can lose his own soul, that if he is lost at last it will be his own fault, and his blood will be on his own head. The same inspired Bible which reveals this doctrine of Election is the Bible which contains the words, “Why will ye die, O house of Israel?” — “Ye will not come unto Me that ye might have life.” — “This is the condemnation, that light is come into tire world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (Ezek. xviii. 31; John v. 40; iii. 19.) The Bible never says that sinners miss heaven because they are not Elect, but because they “neglect the great salvation,” and because they will not repent and believe. The last judgment will abundantly prove that it is not the want of God’s Election, so much as laziness, the love of sin, unbelief, and unwillingness to come to Christ, which ruins the souls that are lost.” J.C. Ryle


The rest of the article can be found [url=http://www.the-highway.com/election_Ryle.html]here[/url]

I think it may have much to offer this discussion.

Grace and peace


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/24 9:16Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
then could God not be blamed as evil and arbitrary in allowing men to be raised in such a way that their ability to understand or their mental competence would not allow them to choose?



Actually quite the opposite. If God had not allowed Adam and Eve to sin then a relationship of true love between God and man would not have been possible. Without the potential to disobey there would be not true obedience.

If you are going to make a claim about mental capabilities. Well first off salvation is not a matter of mental ascent (or at least shouldn't be). Second, God calls the murder of children the "murder of innocence". Someone who is still a child in their mental capabilities is no different, it is not a matter of legal age.

Thirdly, you would be amazed if you truly knew how much understanding people have about God who have no way of expressing themselves to the outside world.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/24 9:56Profile
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re:

Just to clarify, I'm not referring to those who are mentally disabled. What I mean is the level of intelligence. If it is about choosing, then it is a matter of the mind and the mind's ability to grasp or inclination to see the logic in it. But I would totally agree with you- Salvation is not a matter of mental ascent. That is the point of what I am getting at.
So where does the capability for those who are dead in their sins and darkened in their minds to desire and obtain salvation through repentance and faith in Christ come from?


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2008/5/24 10:08Profile
linda7
Member



Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England

 Re: Personal Election (not corporate)

Logic wrote (page 1):

Quote:
.....the fact that the only reason why the non-elect will not be saved is because they stubbornly refuse salvation.



You are looking for criteria that God uses to predestinate a person. Is what is said above not the clue to it?

If God made us with free will and He foreknew that the first man Adam would sin, and turn away from Him, why did He, in the first place, make someone who he knew would turn away from Him by his sin? Because He gave us free will, so we would not just be puppets on a string. So now we are offered this free gift of salvation through Christ, but men love their sin, and God foreknew this also, who would REPENT and accept this gift and who would not. As He had the foreknowledge of this, He could predetermine those who He knew would repent and be His before they were even born. Becaue He knew us before we were even born.

FOREKNOW Strongs 4267
1) to have knowledge before hand

2) to foreknow

a) of those whom God elected to salvation

3) to predestinate


PREDESTINATE Strongs 4309
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand

2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

So, those whom He foreknew would repent and believe in Him, He predestinated. He stated that those He knew would believe in Him He would draw to Jesus.


And it says that He does not want anyone to perish, of course a loving God does not want anyone to perish, but they have their own free will.


So what is the criteria for predestination? I would say that since all have sinned, it must be that God has seen (foreknowledge)the individual's repentance.

Linda


_________________
Linda

 2008/5/24 18:34Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
So where does the capability for those who are dead in their sins and darkened in their minds to desire and obtain salvation through repentance and faith in Christ come from?



God is calling all men unto repentance. That is the capability and Jesus is the provision.

If you are asking what makes a man change the attitude of his heart from loving sin and hating God to, say, "let me see what this Jesus-thing is all about." I would have to say it is little more than (I believe it was C.S. Lewis) it was said, something like this: If I have desires that are not fulfilled by this world then I am obviously made for another world. Some have described it as that "God-shaped space" that only He can fill. Or, more politcally correct, the "throne of God" that is established in my heart that I am sitting on and I know I don't belong there.

There is pleasure for a season in the world but the end thereof is death. And either we go on loving sin (which is essentially what? My will and not God's Will) and putting out the light of our consciences, as with a searing iron, or we yield to the light of our consciences.

The desire to repent and seek God is always there. That is the knowledge of God that Paul speaks of. It is yielding to that call that makes us or breaks us ... "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Either way we will be broken; perhaps this is what hinders many, the fear of death. When God breaks us, He also builds us up. But when He destroys ... who can withstand Him?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/5/24 19:45Profile





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