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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Who gives repentance unto salvation?

Tell
mne hw you get passed this:

why God would be angry(Hebrews 4:3) at those who do not repent if all he needs to do is give it to them.

How do you get passed this logical reason of God's condemnation:

GOD - "Since I sent my son to die for you, the only reason that you are condemned is for not repenting.
Therefore, I command that you repent, however, I will not give it to you.
Just because I will not give repentence to you, I will condemn you for not doing it."

I am serious, How do you get passed these?

 2008/5/20 10:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4589


 Re:

Can we not agree – regardless of whether you believe in predestination or not – that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to reject anyone who calls upon His Name?

Who cares whether or not we think that they are “elected” or not? The fact of the matter is that the Lord will accept ANYONE who calls upon His Name in truth. We cannot live our lives thinking that God had ulterior motives in His sacrifice. God sacrificed His Son so that ALL MEN could be afforded the opportunity to come to Him. Regardless of the fact that God sits on the outside of time and knows the end from the beginning – this truth remains: “Anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/5/20 11:49Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:


"I am serious, How do you get passed these?"

There is only One that can get you passed these.

Philippians 3:15-21 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Who's working? 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Can we deliver ourselves?

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/5/20 14:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
"I am serious, How do you get passed these?"

There is only One that can get you passed these.

Philippians 3:15-21 Let us therefore...

Who's working? 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us...

Can we deliver ourselves?

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then?...
In Christ: Phillip


You didn't answer the question.

Those Scriptures have no relivence to the answer needed.

Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

 2008/5/20 15:05Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
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 Re:

"""Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide."""


Christ, His death on the Cross, That God sacrificed His own Son to get us.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Read this carefully and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth, that it is of God and no man can come to the Father unless he is called and given the possession to Christ who brings us to the Father. For we are His and no man comes to the Father unless it is through Jesus Christ, who's Glory is the prize given to the Father, that is the children of God, even son's of God, of whom Christ is the first born among many.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

If our labour is outside of the Lord then it is in vain and Christ profits you nothing and we have fallen from Grace, not lost our salvation, but not appropriating what God has given us in Christ Jesus, which is far above all that we ask or thing of.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

This is the victory and answer to your question, it is Christ that the Father gives the elect His calling and His calling is sure.

1 Peter 1:6-25 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Who are these that Hear His voice, How do they know and hear His voice? They are His sheep whom the Father has given Him.

I could go on and on from now till His coming and we still will not understand unless it is revealed to us. If we ask for the bread of life will the Father give us a stone? Praise God, no.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Are we perfect? Praise God, yes, by the Christ that is in us, By Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/5/20 16:30Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
Please, How do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

Christ, His death on the Cross, That God sacrificed His own Son to get us.

Come on, please,
why don't you or anybody answer the questions on this thread?

Do you know that criteria is the opposit of arbitrary?
[b]Criteria:[/b] standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle
[b]Arbitrary:[/b] not governed by any fixed rules

Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary, because they are not tests on which a judgment or decision can be based.
All they are is soly based upon "just because I want to & that I can"

Tell me the truth, do you actualy think that "just because God wants to & that HE can" is the answer to my question?

What ever you just posted does not answere my previous questions.

Furhtermore, IF Repentance & faith are gifts, how do you get passed that God is angry and condemns men for what He does not provide.

Your last post certainly did not answer that.
Did you mean to not answer, or do you actualy think you did?

 2008/5/20 22:38Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary,



ar bi trar y (ar' bi-trer-ee) 1. determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle 2. despotic, tyrannical, ruling by whim, usually oppressively

God is not subject to fits of whimsy. He is a God of order and of law—a "principled sovereign"—and though we may not always understand His ways, we know He is never irrational, erratic, or inconstant (James 1:17). He always acts in accord with His own consummate holiness and perfect righteousness. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2), and He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13).

Of course, He is bound by no rule higher than Himself, but nonetheless, all that He does must be consistent with His own immutable character. Thus He cannot be "arbitrary."

(from some article...can't remember it)

God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/20 23:34Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Logic, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that He died on the Cross, was buried and rose the third day?

Do you believe that He ascended to the Father and is seated with the Father and the elect saints are seated with Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Places?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is birthed in you and that is why you are a son of God?

Do you believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Jesus Christ?

Do you believe that you will have a body Just like Jesus Christ in the resurrection?

I have given you my answers to your questions, my answer to all your questions is always going to be In Christ or Christ in you.

Please answer mine.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/5/21 0:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is birthed in you and that is why you are a son of God?

I am birthed into HIM.
What is with the "HIM being birted you or me" stuff?

Quote:
I have given you my answers to your questions, my answer to all your questions is always going to be In Christ or Christ in you.

So, you say that the answer to the question:
Quote:
Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?

You say the answer is "In Christ or Christ in you."

Then my answer to your qustions are, "my grace is sufficient for you"

Do you see that our answers have no relivence to the questions asked?

Please explain how "In Christ or Christ in you." is the answer to the question
Quote:
"Why would God be angry at those who do not repent if all HE needs to do is give repentence to them?"

How your that answer relivent to the original question?

Or is it your just teasing me by playing stupid.

Now don't get offended because I asked if your playing stupid, but anyone giving an irrelevant answer as yours to a specific question as mine is non-sence.
I'm not calling you stupid, I wouldn't do that.

My mind is boggeled because your answere is like giving an answer as of "[color=9933CC]purple[/color]" to the question 2+2=?

If your not going to give a correct answer with relivence to the question, don't answer at all.

 2008/5/21 13:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Answers like these:
He chose us in Him according to the good pleasure of His will.
OR
according to His own purpose and grace
OR
that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain.

These are totaly arbitrary,

ar bi trar y (ar' bi-trer-ee) 1. determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle 2. despotic, tyrannical, ruling by whim, usually oppressively

God is not subject to fits of whimsy. He is a God of order and of law—a "principled sovereign"—and though we may not always understand His ways, we know He is never irrational, erratic, or inconstant (James 1:17). He always acts in accord with His own consummate holiness and perfect righteousness. He cannot lie (Titus 1:2), and He cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13).

Of course, He is bound by no rule higher than Himself, but nonetheless, all that He does must be consistent with His own immutable character. Thus He cannot be "arbitrary."

AMEN!!!
Thisvis what my whole point is.

Quote:
(from some article...can't remember it)

God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, but since we know the trustworthiness of God we can rejoice in His wisdom. God does not 'lack just reasons’ for His actions. These 'just reasons' are merely hidden from us.

First of all, you can not tell me that O'm incorrect, if what you say is true.

Second, I wouldn't be asking if there was no answer.
GOD has given the criteria as I presented.

Simple deduction & logic determines these to be true.
If God's commands of salvation are not of the criteria:
obedience, repentence, Faith, humility; then all that is left for the criteria to be is an arbitrary reason if not one of partiality.

Why else would God comand these to the world if they are not needed to become saved, or not the criteria of election?

Do not say that one does not need any of these to be saved, unless you can back it up with sound reasoning of Scripture.
If they are needed to be save, then the are the criteria for personal election.

Do not be as Christinyou and give a nonsense answere, but give relevance in your response.

Tell me how your answer is not arbitrary and not of partiality.
Quote:
Obey and leave the consequences to God.

If God has simply not revealed all His reasons and causes to us, then this whole theory of limited election falls to peaces, aybe even more of their theology.

How does the calvinist or the reformed confirm this aspect of their theology if it has not been revealed?

 2008/5/21 14:01Profile





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