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 Re:

We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.

 2008/5/14 12:59
andres
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Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Logic, please tell us the answer?
love andy


_________________
andy

 2008/5/14 13:12Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic,

you use the language "standard of judgment". Grace and mercy have nothing to do with God making a judgment. Your question is faulty at the start. Your question should rather be why does God have mercy on some and not all? The Bible answers that correct question very clearly..... to badly paraphrase... " don't ask because it is His to know". And, I don't think you really mean that God would not be love if he saved only some. You presume that love trumps justice and no where in the Bible will you justify that position. God's attributes are in perfect harmony and a significant reason Jesus had to die is because God could not justify the sinner under any circumstance other than a payment of mankind's debt by a subsitute. God loves His justice. According to Scripture, anyone who justifies the guilty is an abomination to the Lord. How then does God justify the sinner? The answer is atonement through the blood of Christ. His justice is maintained and His love of the sinner is manifest...Propitiation. Mercy and love are in union but so are love and justice.

 2008/5/14 13:30Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.



That would make it an easy thread. :-D

God created the chicken and the chicken laid eggs.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/5/14 13:32Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic,

you use the language "standard of judgment". Grace and mercy have nothing to do with God making a judgment. Your question is faulty at the start.

Sure does have everything to do with making a judgment. [b]How does God decide (judge) which people to elect or not to elect?[/b]

How does HE have Grace and mercy without deciding (judging) whom HE has Grace and mercy on?

Quote:
Your question should rather be why does God have mercy on some and not all?

Yes.
another question; How does God have mercy on some and not all with out being partial.

Quote:
The Bible answers that correct question very clearly..... to badly paraphrase... " don't ask because it is His to know".

The bible never gives that answer.
It shows us very clearly why/how God has mercy on some and not all [b]or[/b] elects some and not all with out being partial.

 2008/5/14 13:59Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
andres wrote:
Logic, please tell us the answer?
love andy

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

However, y'all gave that answer, but, then I asked, what did God foreknow of the "who" that He elects?
Or
What is that foreknowledge of?

It can not be that God foreknew that He would elect. Or that He foreknew that He would predestinate. That would bring up the same question.

[b]1Peter 1:2[/b] [color=990000]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.[/color]

This tells us that we are elect through sanctification, separattion or seting apart of the Spirit.

This has the same question, what criteria does God use th decide which people to sanctify?
It can not be that God foreknew that He would sanctify.

It can not be that God has foreknowledge of what He will do, that is still based purly upon will, which is still an arbitrary decision; "just because HE wants to and that HE can".
God does nothing arbitrarily.

If God would pardon one and not the other, based purely upon his will apart from anything else, not only will that be an arbitrary decision, HE would be showing partiality in His pardoning if the two criminals are all together equal in their crimes, which all mankind are.

Lastly, it can not be said that God elects according to His His good pleasure. Thatbis to ambiguous, it brings the question, what is His Good plesure?
What pleases God to elect one & not the other?

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Any other reason is partiality &/or arbitrary.

 2008/5/14 16:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
We could rename this the CHICKEN OR THE EGG THREAD.



That would make it an easy thread. :-D

God created the chicken and the chicken laid eggs.




Preach believe you just solved the thread on God made both the chicken and the egg.

 2008/5/14 19:49
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ro 9:21
Verse 21. Hath not the potter, etc. This same sovereign right of God the apostle proceeds to urge from another illustration, and another passage from the Old Testament, Isa 64:8, "But now, O Lord, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand." This passage is preceded in Isaiah by one declaring the depravity of man.

Isa 64:6, "We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." As they were polluted with sin, as they had transgressed the law of God, and had no claim and no merit, God might bestow his favours as he pleased, and mould them as the potter did the clay. He would do no injury to those who were left, and who had no claim to his mercy, if he bestowed favours on others, any more than the potter would do injustice to one part of the mass, if he put it to an ignoble use, and moulded another part into a vessel of honour. This is still the condition of sinful men. God does no injustice to a man if he leaves him to take his own course to ruin, and makes another, equally undeserving, the recipient of his mercy, he violated none of my rights by not conferring on me the talents of Newton or of Bacon; or by not placing me in circumstances like those of Peter and Paul. Where all are undeserving, the utmost that can be demanded is, that he should not treat them with injustice. And this is secured even in the case of the lost. No man will suffer more than he deserves; nor will any man go to perdition feeling that he has a claim to better treatment than he receives. The same sentiment is found in Jer 18:6, "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel. At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation," etc. The passage in Isaiah proves that God has the right of a sovereign over guilty individuals; that in Jeremiah, that he has the same right over nations: thus meeting the whole case as it was in the mind of the apostle. These passages, however, assert only the right of God to do it, without affirming anything about the manner in which it is done, In fact, God bestows his favours in a mode very different from that in which a potter moulds his clay. God does not create holiness by a mere act of power, but he produces it in a manner consistent with the moral agency of men; and bestows his favours not to compel men, but to incline them to be willing to receive them. Ps 110:3, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power." It should be further remarked, that the argument of the apostle here does not refer to the original creation of men, as if God had then made them one for honour and another for dishonour, he refers to man as fallen and lost. His argument is this: "Man is in ruins; he is fallen; he has no claim on God; all deserve to die. On this mass, where none have any claim, he may bestow life on whom he pleases, without injury to others; he may exercise the right of a sovereign to pardon whom he pleases; or of a potter to mould any part of the useless mass to purposes of utility and beauty."
Potter. One whose occupation it is to make earthen vessels.

Power. This word denotes here not merely physical power, but authority, right. See Mt 7:29, translated "authority;" Mt 21:23; 2Th 3:9; Mr 2:10; Lu 5:24, "The Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins," etc.

Lump. Mass. It denotes anything that is reduced to a fine consistency, and mixed, and made soft by water; either clay, as in this place, or the mass produced of grain pounded and mixed with water. Ro 11:16, "If the first-fruit be holy, the lump is also holy." 1Co 5:6, "Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

One vessel. A cup, or other utensil, made of clay.

Unto honour. Fitted to an honourable use, or designed for a more useful and refined purpose.

Unto dishonour. To a meaner service, or more common use. This is a common mode of expression among the Hebrews. The lump here denotes the mass of men, sinners, having no claim on God. The potter illustrates God's right over that mass, to dispose of it as seems good in his sight. The doctrine of the passage is, that men have no right to complain if God bestows his blessings where and when he chooses.

Logic wrote: "The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Any other reason is partiality &/or arbitrary.


"must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered."

This is based on mans goodness of which there is none. No man would submit and none have ever unless God's intervention was first, then and only then can any man submit to the truth.

This is man's philosophy not God Sovereignty.

It is not man's goodness that he will submit or that would make God of no consequence in His choosing because the man He chooses will hear and of his own goodness choose to submit and The Cross of Christ of no need.

This part is true: "God must have known whom he could save." But not based on any goodness that man has to submit. The submission is upon God's input and the Cross of Christ, in the totality of the depravity man, giving man the ability to then choose life.

It is all God, and none of man, that is why we must decrease and He must increase, until Christ be formed in us, and I am no more. This is new life and a new creature in Christ Jesus our Lord, and yet God has as many different children as the flowers of the field. He made me this way and I am pleased to accept His Son as my life and all that I am.

The works we do bare witness of the Christ in us, just like the works Christ did bare witness of the Father in Him. "Not my works lest any man should boast".

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

This is what the Church has missed, it is Christ in us that is doing the works, and the Holy Spirit that does the works of salvation from the Father in us also.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

It takes the Nature of God to change the nature of man and become a son of God. It is His Choice not ours, "from before the foundation of the world," I was in Christ and He would be I me when the dispensation of time of God the Father set forth that I would believe. Not of my works lest I should boast.

Colossians 1:25-27 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

If God chooses His son's to believe, they will believe. Or else His Word would return void.

I don't know why God chose me for I sure did not deserve it, but I am greatful beyond words He did.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Romans 12:2-3 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The saving Faith of Jesus Christ that is in us.
Amen

In Christ: Phillip






_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/14 23:08Profile









 Re: 1 Peter 1:2

When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

...What is meant by "foreknowledge?" "To know beforehand," is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump at conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple, rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance.

...The word "foreknowledge" is not found in the Old Testament. But know occurs there frequently. When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favour, denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. "I know thee by name" (Ex. 33:17). "Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you" (Deut. 9:24). "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jer. 1:5). "They have made princes and I knew it not" (Hos. 8:4). "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2). In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed.

In like manner, the word "know" is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. "Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you" (Matt. 7:23). "I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine" (John 10:14). "If any man love God, the same is known of Him" (1 Cor. 8:3). "The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

...God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift.

...Christians are a people "who have believed through grace" (Acts 18:27). If then, they have believed "through grace," there is absolutely nothing meritorious about "believing," and if nothing meritorious, it could not be the ground or cause which moved God to choose them.

...Once more, in Romans 11:5, we read of "a remnant according to the election of grace."

...It thus appears that it is highly important for us to have clear and scriptural views of the "foreknowledge" of God. Erroneous conceptions about it lead inevitably to thoughts most dishonoring to Him. The popular idea of Divine foreknowledge is altogether inadequate. God not only knew the end from the beginning, but He planned, fixed, predestinated everything from the beginning. And, as cause stands to effect, so God’s purpose is the ground of His prescience. If then the reader be a real Christian, he is so because God chose him in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4), and chose not because He foresaw you would believe, but chose simply because it pleased Him to choose: chose you notwithstanding your natural unbelief. This being so, all the glory and praise belongs alone to Him. You have no ground for taking any credit to yourself. You have "believed through grace" (Acts 18:27), and that, because your very election was "of grace" (Rom. 11:5).

(A.P.)

 2008/5/14 23:18
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Again O'wisevirgin

Amen


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/14 23:30Profile





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