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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
This is His criteria:

He is the reason we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:1-13 ...


The part of Scripture can not be THE criteria because it is not a standard of judgment or criticism.

If any, the closest to this could be [b]1Jn 5:1[/b] [color=990000]Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and everyone that loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him.[/color]
Or
[b]1Jn 5:5[/b] [color=990000]Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?[/color]

However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to [b]be[/b] elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.

 2008/5/13 17:09Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

how can it be my fault for not believing if God is the one responsible for not enabling me to believe?


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2008/5/13 17:25Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Quote:
Quit dodging the question



Logic,

Dodging? !!

Does any of us have the need to dodge any questions from anyone anywhere? Does not the Bible from cover to cover suffice all the answers to all men? If we are willing to study IT in humility and genuine sincerity? Would The Spirit so stand aside and let us fall into confusion?

Is it not fruitless to seek answers from those considered "unlearned" and those who dodge questions? Are you waiting for that speical "learned" one for your answer here on SI? :) Find me a [i]fully[/i] learned man, and God will show you his unlearnedness, especially from those who makes such claims, in no time.

In response to a couple of your "questions", here are some of my "still-learning" comprehension and a bit of my testimony to my own unworthiness of that electing Grace.

1. Corporate/Individual Election
1+1+1+1.........= the elect corporate nation/Israel
1+1+1+1.........= the Elect Body/Church
Without the 1, there's no corporate anything. Simple enough? ( Parden me, I'm not very scientific or insightful here perhaps) :)

2. Criterion:

[b]16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [/b]



We hear a lot of our willfulness, our pleasure, our desire, but we seem reluctant to allow GOD to have His Own?
[b]GOD's own good pleasure[/b], therewith any criteria [b]HE sees fit[/b],(the criteria that displayed from me would definitely be my lostness, sinfulness, weakness and hopelessness, at a young age of 9, touched by His mercy and conviction, a long time ago, if one can consider that "criteria").

Why Adam, why Abraham, why X,Y,Z?? Why Jacob and not Esau, why David but not Saul, why the 12 but not the 11 or 13? What's the underlying criteria? God's own good pleasure, as one can see a little here from some Scriptures below:

Luke 12:32
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's [b]good pleasure[/b] to give you the kingdom.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the [b]good pleasure[/b] of his will,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the [b]mystery[/b] of his will, according to [b]His good pleasure [/b]which he hath purposed in himself:

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [b]His good pleasure[/b].

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the [b]good pleasure of His goodness[/b]and the work of faith with power

Furthermore, another small passage from Romans 8 here teaches on election, visit Ephesians, John, John 17, John 15, read Kings, read Chronicles, read Deuteronmy.........read Genesis, read Revelation...the remnant, the elect remnant, composing the 1+1+1+1+.....elect souls....

29For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If none of the above satisfy the criteria you look for, consider God's sovereign will, and that alone. (again, found throughout Scripture)

For a sinner to elect a Holy God, that is an unthinkable thing. Take faith, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Even that faith that one so often wants to claim or own to be his, is from God. How can we who are saved claim any, any merit at all?

Dear Christian friends, be grateful, stop finding fault with God's sovreignty.

still learning,
mamaluk








 2008/5/13 17:39Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Ok seriously logic here is an answer straight from Scripture. I am not dodging anything, and I believe the point is clearly made in these verses-

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 1:4 [b]even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.[/b] In love
Ephesians 1:5 [b]he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,[/b]
Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Consider Paul's words here-
Galatians 1:15 But when [b]he who had set me apart before I was born[/b], and who called me by his grace,

Does this not echo the words of God to the prophet Jeremiah-
Jeremiah 1:5 [b]"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,[/b] and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Or how about David-
Psalms 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Interesting that the Holy Spirit makes the point through David that God knew David's days and physical make up before he was even formed!

How about when God gives the name of King Cyrus at least 150 years BEFORE he reigned as king!(Isaiah 44 & 45)

We are dealing with things too complicated for us to figure out and make nice and tidy. God elects those whom He foreknew, and these shall be saved and glorified. We will NEVER know who is elect and who is not until they respond in faith to the Gospel of Christ death for sinners.

Stop looking for answers to this, you may not like what you find, because as you have said many times, you do not want a god who only chooses some and not others, going so far as to call that god a monster!

But the more you look at Scripture, you will see a God who does just that. A God who owes man nothing yet in mercy became one of us and died for us.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/5/13 17:48Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: Logic wrote

""However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to be elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.""



1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect: eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Was Jesus elect to the Cross? When?
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When was it manifest? Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So elect does not occur at the time we believe, it is in the Christ that was elect, before the world began.

The believing is just the manifestation of what God has done in that person that he will believe, and that was begun before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who chose us in Him?

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Who's good pleasure of His will were we predestinated to adoption? Who made us accepted in the belived?

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What was abounded toward us? What was made known to us? According to whose good pleasure and purpose in Himself?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:

in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is in a letter is already written, then it is sealed. When were we sealed? After the letter was already written. The redemption of the purposed possession.


Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Who gives revelation and knowledge? Most of all what has Christ been made unto us?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God (The Father)is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and
sanctification, and redemption:

"made"? ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling,

Whose calling?

and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Who's working? Who's Power? In Whom?

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

Who is our fulness? Who fills us?

Still your choice? The Law is the standard of Judgement and Criticism you ask about. None can keep it and all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and we are all condemned deserve Hell, but God in His great love, when we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is Grace? Strong's Greek Dictionary
5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

I love this Greek tense, Divine influence upon the Heart, that we might believe and be saved by God's appointed Grace through the Faith given us in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who's Faith were we justified by? Who's faith do we live by?

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/13 19:21Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

First of all, The definition that I am using is.
[b]CRITERIA:][/b] n. plu. [Gr., to judge]
[color=990000]A means by which individuals are compared and judged.
A standard of judging;; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared, in order to discover their truth or falsehood, or by which a correct judgment may be formed.[/color]

If there is not a factor of this definition in any answer that you give, then you must be mistaken in your answer.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote: Logic wrote
Ok seriously logic here is an answer straight from Scripture. I am not dodging anything, and I believe the point is clearly made in these verses-

Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Okay, we both agree it is based upon foreknowlege.
But, foreknowlege of what?
What did God foreknow of the "whom"?

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Quote:
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

There is no standard of judgment in this.

Even where it says, "according to the purpose of his will", the purpose is not revealed enough to use as criteria.


Quote:
Consider Paul's words here-

Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,

Does this not echo the words of God to the prophet Jeremiah-

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

There is no standard of judgment in this.

Quote:
Or how about David-

Psalms 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.

Psalms 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.



Interesting that the Holy Spirit makes the point through David that God knew David's days and physical make up before he was even formed!

Yah, but, it gives no standard of judgment for electing him.

Quote:
How about when God gives the name of King Cyrus at least 150 years BEFORE he reigned as king!(Isaiah 44 & 45)

How about it? Is it a standard of judgment for election?

Quote:
We are dealing with things too complicated for us to figure out and make nice and tidy. God elects those whom He foreknew, and these shall be saved and glorified. We will NEVER know who is elect and who is not until they respond in faith to the Gospel of Christ death for sinners.

But, foreknowlege of what?
What did God foreknow of the "whom"?

It can't be that God foreknew that they were elect. That would be circular reasoning.

"for whom He foreknew that He would elect, those He elected"?
This is ridiculous.

Could you just give me an answer from your own words based on Scripture, with out using verses for your answer?

 2008/5/13 21:28Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
mamaluk wrote:
Quote:
Quit dodging the question



Logic,

Dodging? !!

Does any of us have the need to dodge any questions from anyone anywhere? Does not the Bible from cover to cover suffice all the answers to all men? If we are willing to study IT in humility and genuine sincerity? Would The Spirit so stand aside and let us fall into confusion?

Is it not fruitless to seek answers from those considered "unlearned" and those who dodge questions?

Sorry for the offence of my first post.
I was upset when I wrote it.
The only way that you would be of those "unlearned" is if you think that God elects some with out purpose, as electing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Do you? If not, then you wouldn't be one of those wjo anger me as the purpose for starting this thread.

Quote:
Are you waiting for that speical "learned" one for your answer here on SI? :)

Does not need to be special.
Quote:
1. Corporate/Individual Election

1+1+1+1.........= the elect corporate nation/Israel

1+1+1+1.........= the Elect Body/Church

Without the 1, there's no corporate anything. Simple enough? ( Parden me, I'm not very scientific or insightful here perhaps) :)

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;)
This is corporate, Isaac neather had to repent, nor did he need to have faith in this election.

Personal election requires both repentence and faith.

Quote:
2. Criterion:

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Abraham willed or desired that it the promise might be given to Ishmael.
Isaac also willed or desired that the promise might be given to Esau.
This verse is in context with Abraham willing that the promise would come through Ishmael as the context proves Genesis 17:18 Moreover, in Genesis 27 Isaac is willing for Esau to have the blessing and Esau "running" to hunt and make Isaac's favorite meal for the blessing.

This is still corporate election, which does not require faith & repentence.

Quote:
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

How does this link with prsonal election?
Quote:
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God will only harden a hart in judgment.
Quote:
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

After Pharaoh hardened his, God, then hardened Pharaoh's heart.
After God hardenes ones heart, who can resist His will?
Quote:
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Why did You make me like this?

The answer is; you made yourself like that and God, therefore, gave you over to your own ways
Quote:
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Jeremiah 18:2-6
This is not saying that God actually makes vessels specificaly for wrath.

The Potter doesn't throw the lump of clay away, but use the same.

The Potter did not mare the clay Himself, but the clay became marred in His hands.

The Potter(God) did all HE could do to keep the clay(Israel) from being marred. He sent Jeremiah(along with all the other prophets) and the clay(Israel) rebelled anyway.

Therefore, the Potter had to reform the clay into a new vessel.

Israel was warned to repent and they did not, that is the clay being marred. God sent them to Babylon because of there repentance, this is the clay being reformed.
Quote:
We hear a lot of our willfulness, our pleasure, our desire, but we seem reluctant to allow GOD to have His Own?

GOD's own good pleasure, therewith any criteria HE sees fit,

But the only criteria HE sees fit is righteous and in jusice. Not just [b]any[/b] criteria.
Quote:
(the criteria that displayed from me would definitely be my lostness, sinfulness, weakness and hopelessness, at a young age of 9, touched by His mercy and conviction, a long time ago, if one can consider that "criteria").

Yes, thing is that you were touched and convicted. That is some of the criteria which God uses.
Quote:
Why Adam, why Abraham, why X,Y,Z?? Why Jacob and not Esau, why David but not Saul,

The criteria for not choosing Saul is that he was disobedient to the word of God & with many chances he blew it.

[b]1 Samuel 15:26[/b] [color=990000]And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with you: for you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.[/color]
Quote:
why the 12 but not the 11 or 13? What's the underlying criteria?

The underlying criteria is God's foreknowlege that those He elects will repent and put their fsith in Him!
Quote:
God's own good pleasure, as one can see a little here from some Scriptures below:

Good plesure is not criteria, for, what is His his plesure that is good?
Quote:
29For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

What did God foreknow of the "whom"?
It can't be that God foreknew that they were elect. That would be circular reasoning.

"for whom He foreknew that He would elect, those He elected"?
This is ridiculous.
Quote:
If none of the above satisfy the criteria you look for, consider God's sovereign will, and that alone. (again, found throughout Scripture)

Choice from only will is what arbitrary is.
[b]ARBITRARILY:[/b] adv. By will only.
Quote:
For a sinner to elect a Holy God, that is an unthinkable thing.

I'm not implying that man elects God, tnat would be rediculous.
Quote:
Take faith, faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Even that faith that one so often wants to claim or own to be his, is from God. How can we who are saved claim any, any merit at all?

May I expect an answer for these next questions, if not all?
Please explain, how God would not be responsible for the faithlessness if He is responsible for giving faith?

"saving faith" & faith that all mankind has What is the diference but in the person/object that the faith is in or on?

Fact, there is no diference, therefore, all mankind already has faith, they are condemned for not putting it in/on Christ.

Quote:
Dear Christian friends, be grateful, stop finding fault with God's sovreignty.

Know one is finding fault in God's sovereignty, but in some's definition of it.

 2008/5/13 21:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote: Logic wrote

""However, This would mean that one becomes the elect at the moment that he believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

this might be ok, only if people are called to be elect, however, that is not true.
He elects from the foundation of the world, not right when they believe.

Therefore, you are mistaken, sorry.""



1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Elect: eklektoV eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.

Was Jesus elect to the Cross? When?
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

When was it manifest? Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So elect does not occur at the time we believe, it is in the Christ that was elect, before the world began.

The believing is just the manifestation of what God has done in that person that he will believe, and that was begun before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-23 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Who chose us in Him?

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Who's good pleasure of His will were we predestinated to adoption? Who made us accepted in the belived?

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

What was abounded toward us? What was made known to us? According to whose good pleasure and purpose in Himself?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:

in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What is in a letter is already written, then it is sealed. When were we sealed? After the letter was already written. The redemption of the purposed possession.


Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Who gives revelation and knowledge? Most of all what has Christ been made unto us?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him (God the Father)are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God (The Father)is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and
sanctification, and redemption:

"made"? ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being),

The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling,

Whose calling?

and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

Who's working? Who's Power? In Whom?

And hath put all things under his feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.

Who is our fulness? Who fills us?

Still your choice? The Law is the standard of Judgement and Criticism you ask about. None can keep it and all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God and we are all condemned deserve Hell, but God in His great love, when we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What is Grace? Strong's Greek Dictionary
5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

I love this Greek tense, Divine influence upon the Heart, that we might believe and be saved by God's appointed Grace through the Faith given us in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Who's Faith were we justified by? Who's faith do we live by?

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip!
All this and no CRITERIA for God choosing the elect?
Why not just answer the question instead of defending somthing that I have not yet opend?

[b]CRITERIA:[/b] n. plu. [Gr., to judge]
[color=990000]A means by which individuals are compared and judged.
A standard of judging;; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something, rule, principle or fact, by which facts, propositions and opinions are compared, in order to discover their truth or falsehood, or by which a correct judgment may be formed.[/color]

This is for you and every one to know, if you don't already. I know that you should, I feal silly posting the definition, but seems as though know one knows it by the lack of answeres.

What is the means by which God Elects?
What is HIS standard of judgment for electing an dnot electing?
God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?

By which facts, propositions are compared, in order for GOD to discover their electability or condemnation?

Any body should be able to answer these question straightly, in there own words based upon the charactor of God.

 2008/5/13 21:56Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
God has a rule or principle for evaluating or testing those HE elect, What is it?



Does God have to give this information? Can His ways not just be above our understanding?

I have asked the why are some elect and some not question to several people and have always gotten the same answer. It is the same answer Tozer and certain other Arminians give as well…we just don’t know everything about God. God’s ways are not our ways…who can understand?

This is John MacArthurs answer…same as many others have already stated in this thread.

John MacArthur:

When you ask me "why?" about God, you’ve taken me out of my zone. God does what He does because He chooses to do it. And, He is not subject to my evaluation.How God does things is revealed in scripture. The means by which a sinner can be saved is revealed in scripture. Why God chooses to do what He does, puts me in the same category as Job was in. What happened in Job’s life was inexplicable, because he didn’t know God and Satan had this conversation, and, God was going to prove to Satan that you couldn’t break saving faith. Satan was going to try to prove to God that he could break a man’s saving faith, he could break Job’s faith. And, so God said, "Have at him." Job didn’t have a clue what was going on. His friends didn’t have a clue, and they kept accusing Job of being evil and having secret sin and that this was their little paradigm. This is all going bad because you’re a bad person, and where are you hiding it, and Job’s looking around saying look, it’s not there. My heart is right before God and God had even said that he was the most righteous man on the earth. But, then, finally, Job says to God, you know, what’s going on? And, he starts to cry out to God, and God answers him like this: “Where were you when I made the world? Where were you when I put the stars in the sky? Well, who do you think you are? You’re asking me what I do what I do? You’re not a part of the plan, except in the way that I make you a part of it. You’re not a part of the discussion about what’s going to happen.” And, He never tells him why it all happened, never. Never tells him. So, I just say, look, when you ask me questions about why God does what He does, why does He allow evil, the problem with theodicy, why does He choose whom He chooses, why does He pass by whom He passes by, why does He have mercy on whom He will have mercy? "Why" questions are all bound up in His eternal will, and I can’t answer those questions. - John MacArthur


_________________
TJ

 2008/5/13 23:23Profile









 Re: A Standard of Judgement for Election

According to the definition furnished for criteria I do logically and biblically conclude that God the Father has no more and no less of "A Standard of Judgement for Election" than God the Son.

Being created in Christ Jesus as opposed to not being created in Christ Jesus is God the Father's criteria "by which individuals are compared and judged".

Eph. 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him.

Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I do not believe the difference of the heaven-bound man and hell-bound man is to be found in man, as all men are equally unrighteous in the sight of God, all being in Adam.

God sees Christ alone. His perfect Righteousness,His perfect obedience,His very Own Image. Absolutely nothing in the creature is by any means a criteria for electing or not electing this one or that one.

Therefore,God does not arbitrarily elect or not elect. The adoption of sons and their inheritance is "to the praise of the glory of His grace in which He favored us in the One having been loved" (Eph. 1:6).

The Son and the Father's love for His Son is the sole criteria for electing. Christ and the love of God the Father are certainly no arbitrary cause for the subject in question.

I believe this has biblically,apologetically and satisfactorily answered your query, and may all who read make their own judgement as to whether this statement is true.

And Jehovah said to him, Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the dumb, or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?
(Exodus 4:11)

And he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-slave, and of your brothers the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of this Book. Do worship to God (Rev.22:9).

Note: Having concluded with God's criteria in electing, I would briefly mention that the means which God has chosen to use to bring His elect to His salvation is faith in His Son and repentance toward God. Of which both are given as gifts to His elect/chosen ekklesia.

Our end being eternal union in glory with Him.

Alleluia!!!

Amen!













 2008/5/14 1:05





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