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andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Logic, if your honest, when you pray, you ask God to Change men's hearts, most all christians pray like this... they ask God to break mens hearts, and ask God to save men, despite the attitudes and will of those men.. we have all prayed in this manner. Look if men already had the ability to save themselves then why do we need to pray to God, forget praying.. its up to man then to save himself.. so just hope one day that the unsaved man changes his mind .. but ill keep asking God invade man no matter the outcome.. God is always Good..
love andy


_________________
andy

 2008/6/5 21:52Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

[b]What is the significance of love if there is no potential of being hated freely and independantly by another?[/b]


[b]If every event is Sovereignly willed by God, are the thoughts of men also Sovereignly willed by God?[/b]
For it is written, out of the heart flows the issues of life. And again, "when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Also to mention God giving "hardening of the heart".

Which in further consideration would make every thought captive to the Unlimited Sovereignty of God and, thus, every subsequent event. Whereby, men would not be free willed, much less, free thinkers.

[b]Where exactly does God end and man begin in this theology?[/b]

[b]Or, is man no more than an extension of God Himself, that is to say, not an independant creation with qualities seperate from God's Unlimited Sovereignty?[/b]

[b]If man has nothing to call "his own" then how can he be anything but an emptied form of God?[/b]


Quote:
Look if men already had the ability to save themselves then why do we need to pray to God, forget praying.. its up to man then to save himself..



First off, Logic has not said this.
Secondly, "then why do we need to pray to God" implies man's obedience to seek God's face. As it is written, seek and ye shall find. Are you trying to disagree to a false statement and agree to Logic's true statement?


Quote:
Is this not how the Apostle Paul prsents his case for election in Romans 9?


No it isn't.
Romans 9:3 "[...] for the sake of my brethren, [b]my kinsmen according to the flesh[/b]."

Paul is not referring to the "non-elect" but to the entire race of Jews, his kinsmen according to the flesh. The Jews who are God's covenant people which have been given the promise of Christ, the Messiah, whom they have crucified and rejected. Paul is grieved because the very people Christ first came for did not all receive Him.


Thank you intrcssr83, I did enjoy reading that essay by John Piper.

It is good to know that there is more thought behind this theology of "Unconditional Election" than what I have been reading here so far.

I was impressed with the amount of detail and forethought but I still found it overall lacking in completion. An estimation which the author himself also agrees with. However, by opinion of persuasion, the author had personal leanings for his final thoughts for what he felt was the "most accurate" conclusion.


Allow me to try a different approach than focusing on salvation. Let us go back and begin with Adam and Eve.

Genesis 1
26. Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29. Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you.


[b]How is man made "in Our image, according to Our likeness"?[/b]


Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and [b]man became a living being[/b].

1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man [b]Adam was made a living soul[/b].

So there is a relationship here between man being made "in Our image, according to Our likeness" and man being made "a living soul" or "a living being".


[b]According to this theology of Unlimited Sovereignty, How does this quality of man being a "living soul" characterize man made "in Our image, according to Our likeness"?[/b]


Genesis 2
19. Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
20. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.


[b]According to this theology of Unlimited Sovereignty, who named the animals, God or Adam?[/b]

Why did God bring the animals to Adam "to see what the man would call them"?

A) "will of decree":
[b]Did God sovereignly will certain names for Adam to give the animals according to His own Pleasure (God)?[/b]

B) "will of command":
[b]Did God sovereignly will for Adam to freely choose to name the animals as it pleased himself (man)?[/b]

C) Or, [b]both A and B are true?[/b]

The answer is C. Do you agree or disagree?

God was well pleased to choose those names which Adam himself was also well pleased to freely choose.



A) The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace.

B) The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).

C) Or, both A and B are true?

[b]According to these statements the answer is also C.[/b] Do you agree or disagree?



Aside from this, I would like to make a few comments on the previous threads.

Quote:
Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical. It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.



Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?

Does this change anything for you? Or, are you still persistent that you have rightly divided the Word of God?


Romans 2:4
"Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?"

As I asked in a previous thread.

[b]Is it possible that a depraved man may turn from his wicked way for no other reason than that God, Who is Love, loved that sinner just as He loved His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ?[/b]


Quote:
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God"


The description Paul has given is this:
[b]The mind cannot submit to God's Law WHILE it is set on the flesh.[/b]

What does Paul say, Romans 7:18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for [b]to will is present with me[/b]; but [b]how to perform[/b] that which is good I find not."

The desire, the will, to do good is present even in the "depraved heart", though for most sinners this desire they have seared as with a branding iron. It cannot be put out but indeed made as if dimmed.

[b]What lacks is the "how to do".[/b]

This is completely contrary to what you have written,
Quote:
The fact is they can but it would go [b]against the grain of all their desires[/b]


Paul said, all the desires to do good are, in fact, "present with me".

Does this change anything for your theology?

Romans 7
22. [b]For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,[/b]
23. but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25. [b]Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord![/b] So then, on the one hand [b]I myself with my mind am serving the law of God[/b], but on the other, [b]with my flesh the law of sin[/b].

[b]What is this distinction Paul makes between "my mind serving the law of God" and "my flesh the law of sin"?[/b]


[b]Romans 7 sets up an excellent introduction into Isaiah 58 to tell us "how to do" what the Law of God has written in our hearts.[/b]

Isaiah 58
13. "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,
14. Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

God says, "cease from your ways and workings then I will work My Ways". Then He tells us to "Come, Follow Me. Walk by faith and not by sight."

You have continued to mistake this concept as "man's ability to save himself."

This entire concept is focused on man's inability to work the righteousness of God. He may have the zeal and desire to do good as Paul had and still end up persecuting the true church.

What did the Lord command the disciples? "Tarry in Jerusalem until you be endued (clothed) with power from on high."

Stop your works, until I have given you my Holy Spirit which you need to be My witness through My works which I have prepared for you to walk in.

Paul may plant and Apollos may water but it is God who causes the growth. The Father working through Christ through men to His purpose, reconciling all things to Himself in Christ Jesus.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/6 7:01Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

boG said, Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?



boG, I don't follow what your saying here about 1Cor12. My point was that God does in fact give faith. I'm pretty sure that the Scripture says that. I think that Logic was trying to suggest that this particular text did show God giving faith but that it was limited to extraordinary faith. I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness. My own speculation is that at the very least the faith given in 1 Cor 12 is on par with saving faith. Wouldn't you? The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

 2008/6/6 8:18Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
boG said, Since you are shown to have clearly mishandled 1 Corinthians 12, how does this effect your "perfectly consistent" comparisons?

boG, I don't follow what your saying here about 1Cor12. My point was that God does in fact give faith. I'm pretty sure that the Scripture says that. I think that Logic was trying to suggest that this particular text did show God giving faith but that it was limited to extraordinary faith. I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness. My own speculation is that at the very least the faith given in 1 Cor 12 is on par with saving faith. Wouldn't you? The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

As I said, the Gift of Faith is to know for certain something that can not be known from anything except from a divine revelation.

Gift of Faith = God may or may not miraclulously heal at this moment, but you know for certain HE will at this particular time.
God may or may not speak audibly at this moment, but you know for certain HE will at this particular time.
God may or may not because the fact that God does not always, every time do as we ask or pray, but by the Gift of Faith you can proclainm as fact that God will when it is impossible to be proven to know with such boldness.

Saving faith = any one can know that God will for certain save you if asked Him to in prayer, you know for certain HE will at this particular time and every time and all the time.

The non-gift of faith is believing because of factual history of the Gosple, acknowledging the truth of God's Word and acting upon it because the Word of God is validated by prophecy coming to pass.
The non-gift of faith is trusting the facts from the Bible to be true and beliving the withness of HIS redeemed because the evidence of what is known.

Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.

Faith to be saved is something which is from facts; the law is true, you have broken that law, you are a siner, you need to repent, there is a True God, Jesus factualy died on the cross, HE factualy reserected from the dead, you are able to know your sins are taken care of from what is known.

The Gift of Faith can not be known for fact.
When my pastor prayed for that broken leg in a cast, no one could say with such boldness to take the cast off because you are heald.
No one could say with such boldness that God will speak audibly to anyone.
The Gift of Faith has no facts to back it up that you can say, " hear, see, this prooves what I say is true."

With out The Gift of Faith no one can say you are definitly healed miraclously, because God may or may not heal at that time.
With out The Gift of Faith, you can not give a "Word of Knowledge" or a "Word of Wisdom"

With out The Gift of Faith, you can not prove that God wll act miraculously at that specific moment.

I don't know how to be any more specific than this.

I asked you if you have been used by the Holy Spirit with His Gifts?
Please answer this.
My guess that you have not by the way you are speeking about one of the Gifts.
Quote:
whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness.

Any one can know for certain that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God because of the of the facts behind HIM.
Daniels 70 weeks and all prophecy about HIM, the reserection, His apearing to over five hundred brethren at once, His ascention.
There is no need for a "gift of faith" to believe that The 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God.

 2008/6/6 11:30Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic said:
Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.

Faith to be saved is something which is from facts; the law is true, you have broken that law, you are a siner, you need to repent, there is a True God, Jesus factualy died on the cross, HE factualy reserected from the dead, you are able to know your sins are taken care of from what is known.


One response seems to be appropriate.....The Bible you're reading must be very old...some pages seem to have fallen out.



 2008/6/6 13:42Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Yes, his Bible is so old and used the pages fell out and found their way into his heart for safe keeping.

[b]And, by the way, the response you have given is not appropriate.[/b]


I am getting the impression you all are neglecting to respond to the questions in my threads. However, that is well because I do not write them for you only.

Quote:
I would counter that the faith it takes to believe God will heal someone as promised is cetainly extraordinary but certainly no more extraordinary than saving faith is whereby one believes that a 30 year old Jewish carpenter was the Son of God based simply on the testimony or preaching of a Christian witness.



Romans 12:3
as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Is not the same "faith" as ...

1 Corinthians 12:9
to a different one [the gift of] faith by the same Spirit

1 Corinthians 12 is not divided "TO ALL" but "To another ... severaly as He wills."

You cannot use both of these verses to assert your claim.

Although, I wouldn't necessarily agree that
Quote:
Faith to be saved is beliving things that can be known from the Bible, and historical facts that prove the Bible to be true, and other christians which you have seen the change in their life as a witness.



Historical facts are indeed supportive of the truth of the Bible. But I do not believe this is a necessary understanding to have for salvation.

The radical changes in people's lives certainly are a useful witness. Such things can provoke others into jealousy for the things of God.

But still the True Witness is the Spirit of God that calls all men to repent, to turn and see. This is not by a "gift of faith" (1 Cor 12) but the natural inclination of all men to have a knowledge of God. That natural faith by which we may perceive with our eyes, and hear with our ears, and understand with our hearts the invisible Attributes and Nature of God.

John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

If all men by instinct are able to obey the Law of God written in their hearts (Romans 2), then this implies there is some knowledge. This conclusion is agreeable to Scripture (many which we have all already posted).


[b]Romans 1:28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer.[/b]

This word for "acknowledge" is "epignōsis" (Strong's G1922)
[b]1)[/b] precise and correct knowledge
a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine


But eternal life is to "KNOW" in comparison to "knowledge" or "acknowledge"

"ginōskō" (Strong's 1097)

[b]1)[/b] to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
a) to become known

[b]2)[/b] to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
a) to understand
b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know


Faith is the way by which man has knowledge of God and by which man may know God,

[b]"from faith to faith."[/b]

Both words for faith here are "pistis" (Strong's 4102)

[b]1)[/b] conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
a) relating to God

[b]1)[/b] the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
b) relating to Christ

[b]1)[/b] a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
c) the religious beliefs of Christians
d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

[b]2)[/b] fidelity, faithfulness
a) the character of one who can be relied on


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/6 17:30Profile
clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

hello christinyou and miccah . i put this post in here becuase in logics' post on i think 5/13/08 it contained a statement that said, " all decendents of adam are sinners ,all men women and children are sinners , we are born sinners ,sin lives in us". this statement is not the truth and yet many people including many christians believe this and the bible nowwhere says this. there is a big difference in physical depravity and moral depravity. the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN , spirit soul and body being preserved blameless . 1 thess.5;23-24 being preserved blameless is not being a sinner you cannot sin and not be blameless .1 john 3;6-11 whosoever abides in Him sins not:whosoever sins has not seen Him , niether knows Him. little children let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous ,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. he that committeth sin IS OF THE devil ; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR this purpose the SON OF GOD was manifested that HE might destroy the works of the devil. whosoever is born of God does not commit sin,for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.in this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ,niether he that loveth not his brother. for this is the message that you have heard from the begining, that we should love one another. this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy .how dare we stop the purifying, sin irradicating, as far as east is from west, Savior of the whole race ,the LORD of All lords ,JESUS CHRIST, from doing His perfect work in us . holiness is sinlessness that simple, as He is so are we in this world. children are not born sinners, noone is, the psalms does not say that. Job does not say that. so the statement i was refering to is false and were the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. liberty to be all that our HEAVENLY FATHER says we can, should and would be, and that is perfect and holy ad He is perfect and holy.


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2008/6/6 21:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Yes we know that He that is in us does not sin.
Yes it is His seed that is in us and He cannot sin. So, in the Spirit we cannot sin, in the flesh we can, even though our body has been quickened to contain the perfect Seed of the Son of God which God has birthed in us when we were born again. Just like the Seed of Christ from the Father was put in Mary by the Holy Spirit so the Seed of Christ is birthed In us by the Holy Spirit.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin.

A man can commit a sin of the flesh and John also says so in: 1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Notice, "if we" commit a sin. That is not the in the Spirit, but that flesh sin is in our soul, mind. The Spirit cannot sin because it is the Spirit of Christ that is in us. So we being son's of God cannot sin in the Spirit. We can sin in the flesh-soul, that is controlled by our mind, this is the sin of the flesh. "But", 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Where do we confess our sin? In the mind-flesh our soul. The Spirit is The Spirit of Christ, He is our new life and He is the one that cannot sin which makes us son's of God perfect, just like He is.

In renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ the soul-mind is learning to be just like our Spirit and some day it will be perfect just like His, and we will be learning Christ for all eternity.

Perfect in the Spirit, being made perfect in the soul, and will be made perfect in the flesh.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/8 5:30Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

clintstone you are confusing what Logic said. Logic was writing about unbelievers. You have mistakenly applied what Logic said to Spirit-filled believers.

Quote:
this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy



christinyou answered this point well enough.

"Notice, 'if we' commit a sin."

This "if we commit a sin" was also written to Spirit-filled believers.

Quote:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and He cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin.



This is not exactly accurate. The Seed is the Word of God. The Seed is born of God in us. But the focus of this verse is where the Seed is and not the Seed Himself.

So it isn't a matter of "This is the Son of God in us, and He cannot sin". But whether or not whosoever is born of God, because His seed remaineth in him, may yet commit sin. The focus is the believer, not the Seed.

And it should also be made clear that this is talking about "sin" (if we sin we have an Advocate) and not "practicing sin", a lifestyle of unrepentance.

Quote:
So we being son's of God cannot sin in the Spirit.



This is well said.

Quote:
The Spirit is The Spirit of Christ, He is our new life and He is the one that cannot sin which makes us son's of God perfect, just like He is.

In renewing our mind to the Mind of Christ the soul-mind is learning to be just like our Spirit and some day it will be perfect just like His, and we will be learning Christ for all eternity.



I am not sure if I am misunderstanding you here but I would like to make one point.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

The Holy Spirit is not our spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who testifies WITH our spirit. These are not the Self-same Spirit.

Just wanted to mention this so there wouldn't be any mistaking that God's Spirit has not become our very own spirit. But rather, His Spirit with our spirit seated in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6).


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/9 1:11Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

clintstone wrote:

Quote:

hello christinyou and miccah . i put this post in here becuase in logics' post on i think 5/13/08 it contained a statement that said, " all decendents of adam are sinners ,all men women and children are sinners , we are born sinners ,sin lives in us". this statement is not the truth and yet many people including many christians believe this and the bible nowwhere says this. there is a big difference in physical depravity and moral depravity. the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL SIN , spirit soul and body being preserved blameless . 1 thess.5;23-24 being preserved blameless is not being a sinner you cannot sin and not be blameless .1 john 3;6-11 whosoever abides in Him sins not:whosoever sins has not seen Him , niether knows Him. little children let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous ,EVEN AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. he that committeth sin IS OF THE devil ; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. FOR this purpose the SON OF GOD was manifested that HE might destroy the works of the devil. whosoever is born of God does not commit sin,for His seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.in this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ,niether he that loveth not his brother. for this is the message that you have heard from the begining, that we should love one another. this is the division that the baptism in the Holy Ghost and Fire will bring . the Holy Spirit filled person will not sin and cannot sin, how dare we christians mince words on this line. my God is pure and Holy and He makes me and all other true saints pure and Holy .how dare we stop the purifying, sin irradicating, as far as east is from west, Savior of the whole race ,the LORD of All lords ,JESUS CHRIST, from doing His perfect work in us . holiness is sinlessness that simple, as He is so are we in this world. children are not born sinners, noone is, the psalms does not say that. Job does not say that. so the statement i was refering to is false and were the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. liberty to be all that our HEAVENLY FATHER says we can, should and would be, and that is perfect and holy ad He is perfect and holy.




Hey Clintstone,

There are many posts on here that speak on the subject you are speaking. As for the rebuke you directed towards me... Thank you, but I have no idea why I was referenced.

If you are refering to never sinning after being saved, I don't subscribe to that doctrine. But that is another topic
:-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/9 2:38Profile





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