SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 Next Page )
PosterThread
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free".

The command implies free will.
It would be ridiculous to command anything knowing the inability to obey the command.

Quote:
God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could [b]certainly[/b] [b][size=medium]choose[/b][/size] to do it but we don't. Why?


Your statement does not make sense.
First you say that we can't choose, but then you say that We could [b]certainly[/b] choose.
Your whole premise is on the question why we don't.

The answer is only because we do not want to for many reasons.
You can not say that we can't just because we don't want to.

Quote:
Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light.

The same question comes around; we choose to desire the darkness.
not because we can not desire the light.

Quote:
The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.

There is no inability here either.
Desire is able to be chained by the will.

Example.
I like to eat only ketchup.
I will only eat ketchup all week and every meal, nothing else but ketchup.
Maybe even ketchup soup, ketchup hot, ketchup cold, but only ketchup.

Then someone comes and tells me that I will die because of the bad diet. My truth of certain death will change my desired diet. I will now choose to eat a well rounded meal because I chose to change my desire because of the truth.

Quote:
By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledge, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.

This is a true gift of faith, let me explain by example.

My pastor prayed for a man's broken leg in a cast. Pastor told the man to go home and take the cast off. Pastor had the "Gift of Faith" that the "[b]Gift of Healing[/b]" had taken place.

An hour later, the "Gift of Faith" had left Pastor. He called the man to warn him not to take the cast off, fearing that he was mistaken.
However, the man had already taken the cast off and was running & jumping praising God.

You see, the "Gift of Faith" is to believe for certain something that can not be known from anything from outside except from a Devine revelation.
It is only temporary until it is not needed any more.
I also had the "Gift of Faith" come upon me when I knew for certain that God was going to speak audibly to my friend about her burden.
I had no reason to know this, no Scriptural backing, and God rarely speaks audibly.
However, right after I told her that God would speak to her in an audible voice, the "Gift of Faith" left immediately.
She then took my "[b]word of Knowledge[/b]" for truth and 15 minutes later, in the shower, she heard God audibly and started yelling, praising God.

The Gift of Faith is not normal faith, it is believing with certainty with no other witness for the truth of it but from divine revelation.

Normal faith is based upon outside witnesses of the Word of God, other Christians, creation it’s self and the reality of life.

 2008/6/4 12:29Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Israel had the measure of faith that God gives to all man, but not the faith of Christ unto salvation.

You are right Logic, they had none of this saving faith, for it had not come yet.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/4 13:12Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Israel had the measure of faith that God gives to all man, but not the faith of Christ unto salvation.
You are right Logic, they had none of this saving faith, for it had not come yet.

There are not two kinds of faith, it only matters what or Who you put that only one kind of faith in/on.

would you knock it off with your new age philosophies.

Quote:
Deuteronomy 32:20
Galatians 3:23

These verses prove nothing you say, I don't know why you posted them.

 2008/6/4 13:29Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
whyme wrote:
You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free".

The command implies free will.
It would be ridiculous to command anything knowing the inability to obey the command.

Quote:
God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could [b]certainly[/b] [b][size=medium]choose[/b][/size] to do it but we don't. Why?


Your statement does not make sense.
First you say that we can't choose, but then you say that We could [b]certainly[/b] choose.
Your whole premise is on the question why we don't.

The answer is only because we do not want to for many reasons.
You can not say that we can't just because we don't want to.

Quote:
Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light.

The same question comes around; we choose to desire the darkness.
not because we can not desire the light.

Quote:
The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.

There is no inability here either.
Desire is able to be chained by the will.

Example.
I like to eat only ketchup.
I will only eat ketchup all week and every meal, nothing else but ketchup.
Maybe even ketchup soup, ketchup hot, ketchup cold, but only ketchup.

Then someone comes and tells me that I will die because of the bad diet. My truth of certain death will change my desired diet. I will now choose to eat a well rounded meal because I chose to change my desire because of the truth.

Quote:
By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledge, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.

This is a true gift of faith, let me explain by example.

My pastor prayed for a man's broken leg in a cast. Pastor told the man to go home and take the cast off. Pastor had the "Gift of Faith" that the "[b]Gift of Healing[/b]" had taken place.

An hour later, the "Gift of Faith" had left Pastor. He called the man to warn him not to take the cast off, fearing that he was mistaken.
However, the man had already taken the cast off and was running & jumping praising God.

You see, the "Gift of Faith" is to believe for certain something that can not be known from anything from outside except from a Devine revelation.
It is only temporary until it is not needed any more.
I also had the "Gift of Faith" come upon me when I knew for certain that God was going to speak audibly to my friend about her burden.
I had no reason to know this, no Scriptural backing, and God rarely speaks audibly.
However, right after I told her that God would speak to her in an audible voice, the "Gift of Faith" left immediately.
She then took my "[b]word of Knowledge[/b]" for truth and 15 minutes later, in the shower, she heard God audibly and started yelling, praising God.






Like I said, free will may, if at all, be implied only.

As to not being able to obey because you won't or don't desire to, please consider this example: If I asked you to forgive someone who tortured and murdered your spouse, a natural person would say "I can't" do that. The fact is they can but it would go against the grain of all their desires because they really want to kill the person who did that to their spouse. When a wicked man, who wants his will to rule
his life, is asked to make God is Lord, he will answer I can't. The real answer is he won't because that is the last thing he wants to do.

Men can be told that if they will die to self, and make Jesus Lord they will live. Men, without a change of the wicked heart, say I would rather die then. In fact, one man and woman, even with an intellect and will that far exceeds yours or mine were told that if they eat the wrong fruit they will die, they desired the fruit anyway and discounted the truth and died. How you or I with much more limited personal resources could do better is beyond me.


YOur position that the will controls the heart is contrary to Scripture. Look at how Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit came about. First comes desire then comes choice then comes act. Now, after the fall, it is even worse, our choices through the will are slaves to the root of sin in our hearts before conversion, after conversion our choices of the will are slaves to the root of righteousness that has been planted in our hearts. The nature of man is found in the heart and not the will. We, like all of creation, choose and act ( the will ) according to our nature.

Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical. It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.

Your rationales for your position all stem from the same foundation, that is that the Scripture in your view implies free will and that then supercedes God's explicit sovereignty in salvation and that to find otherwise renders God a "tyrant". The God I see in the Bible is sovereign in salvation and he is not a tyrant but a King. Psalm 110:3 "He made us willing in the day of His power".












 2008/6/4 15:43Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

if we look in romans starting with chapter 1 verse 18 thru ch 3:23 we see a list of characteristics of mankind, who know God but refuse acknowlege HIm as God..
now if you look at verse 31 " without understanding, covenantbrakers, without natural affection, impalacable, unmerciful..

if you say faith is a mental assent of the mind then these people will never be saved because they have no understanding..
if you say, in are person we have some sort of natural faith to belive upon God , then these peole cant never be saved because the bible calls them covenant breakers which according to (stongs and vines) in the greek means faithless can not keep a covenant..
we know all the world is guilty before God, and justice demands our punishment(rom 3:19) but by the grace of God the church of God is saved by Christ and his work( obedience, faith love (rom ch 5)( eph 5:25-27) for we have no strength ( faith, understanding) to save ourselves(rom 5:6) for our love for sin is greater than our love for God. but, we have been placed in Christ by God(rom6:3-4), and know we have the power of the Spirit to do the things that God requires(phil 2:12-13) (Ezekiel 36:24-28).. Why? to declare , I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be the just and the justifier of him which believe upon Jesus(rom 3:25-26)..
Why did he choose certain people then? God before the foundation of the world had certain people on His mind to elect ( eph1:4-6), and for the most part God chooses weak things of the world (1 corth 1: 26-31, Ezekiel 16. 1-6).
But i will sing like david sang " what is man that you are mindful of him? and the son of man that you vistest him? (psalm 8)For who can understand the mind of God and fathom his doings..(Job 37:23,(1 cor 2:16) and I shall be thankful that i will never hear the dreadful words of our King " away with you i never KNEW you"( matt7:23)


love andy

Quote:


_________________
andy

 2008/6/4 17:38Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
The uncircumcision is saved through Faith that is given by God and the elect do believe and hear through faith that is the light of the world, which makes the Law void in the believer, the Law is still perfect and it is fulfilled in us by the Christ Seed we are born again with.


Why do you say the Law is void and still perfect and fulfilled? Is it both at the same time?

Why the mention of "uncircumcision"? Is there some reasoning behind it?

Quote:
Specifically pointing to Jesus Christ who is the light of our Faith and the only Faith that can see the kingdom, for unless you are born again you cannot see, know, feel or hear the things of the kingdom of God.


You are forgetting the rest of the Scripture. Once you are born-again you may "see" the kingdom. But unless you are born of water and the Spirit you cannot "enter" the kingdom.

[b]Where does being born of water and the Spirit [/b](which is listed after being born-again) [b]come in to your theology[/b]?

Why didn't you mention being born of water and the Spirit?

John 1
4. In Him was life, and [b]the life[/b] [u]was[/u] [b]the Light of men[/b].
5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

If you say "faith is the light of the world", then does that mean "faith" and "life" are the same thing, according to John 1?

Show me your Scripture reference that says "faith is the light of the world".

You seem to use the word "faith" very non-descriptly. Even bordering "implicity" ...

Quote:
I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot [enter] the light, the light must come out of darkness.



So the measure of faith we have before salvation is different than the "Faith" that God gives us salvation by? One faith God gave us which is in darkness and then He gives a new Faith that has Light in Christ? This is correct according to what you have written?

Quote:
"So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith."



Let me try and grasp this.

"dark faith" = with no light, not only is this faith prior to salvation but it is not able to receive salvation.

"dark faith" must be given "light" to "comprehend Grace" which this "dark faith" receives "through faith"

... What? You use the word "faith" without any solid consistency.

Quote:
He truly is our light in the darkness and our faith is truly of Him, lest our faith still be in darkness and we stumble on the root out of dry ground and fall and end up as the seed fallen on the Side of the road and die.



Isaiah 53:2
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and [b]as a root out of a dry ground[/b]: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Are you saying the "root out of dry ground", being Jesus Christ, trips us over on to the "side of the road to die"?

That's a strange parable, where did you get it?

If you are alluding to the "Parable of the Sower", this is well.

Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and [b]their eyes [u]THEY[/u] have closed[/b]; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

It says here the people themselves closed their eyes, not God. Jesus says rather if they would open their eyes [b]at any time[/b] they would see Him and hear Him and understand with their hearts and be converted and Jesus would heal them.

Do you believe Jesus spoke incorrectly? Isn't God the one who gave them "faith with no light", so that they could not see?

What is the significance of closing their eyes if they couldn't see anyways?

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. [b]This is he which received seed by the way side[/b].

Is this the way side you were referring to? It doesn't say anything about roots out of dry ground. But it does mention lack of understanding and the wicked one.

What is this "seed which was sown"?
It is "the word of the kingdom".

[b]So here is another question:[/b]

Why doesn't this Word of God bring "light", according to you?

Is God giving out another "measure of faith" that is "in darkness"?





[b]OK, these are easy questions so far? Here are the real questions I want to ask you:[/b]

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This Scripture says not only "[b]clearly seen[/b]" but "[b]being understood[/b]", and even "[b]since the creation of the world[/b]".

This implies "light", or do you disagree?

[b]Where does your measure of "dark faith" agree with Scripture?[/b]

Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say your "faith" is darkened. In fact it says rather,

Romans 1:28
And even as [b]they did not like to retain God in their knowledge[/b], God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

I read throughout the Bible that the people have light to "cleary see" God and this knowledge perturbs their evil ways.

Your analogy of light is also misunderstood. First off, true, darkness cannot enter light. Secondly, light has no need to "come out of the darkness" because light is never "in darkness".

Your false assumption is that the Word of God is little more than a candle placed on a hill. When in reality He is Omnipresent and fills the entire universe with His True and Radiant Light.

The true analogy is that darkness is trying to hide from the Light of God out on an open hill. The only darkness in this existence is in the hearts and minds of men. This is not the same as "faith" or the "measure of faith" unless you also want to also say faith is the "heart and mind". All faith is light because faith is the "clearly seen" and "being understood" knowledge of God that cannot be overcome, or put out, of a man.

Your concept of faith is irrational in that you use the word "faith" to "fill in the blank" of every spiritual concept you aren't understanding properly.


Quote:
1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledgle, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.



You are also confused about what faith truly is and also about what the gifts of the Spirit are. If you had actually taken the time to read this Scripture in its entirety you would have also seen this:

1 Corinthians 12
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

[...]

28. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30. Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31. But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Now, what do you read here? Paul asks, "Do all have every gift?" So in succession if Paul had repeated the list of every gift, he would have also said "Have all the gift of faith?"

If you will look again Paul says, "[b]To another[/b] faith by the same Spirit."

He does [b]not[/b] say "to all" faith by the same Spirit.

Or, did you simply wash over that part? This is not a buffet of spiritual gifts where you get to have all of them. But as the Holy Spirit divides these gifts out to each as He wills. However, this doesn't mean that what you got you keep either. But each gift comes and goes as it is necessary for the ministry to profit withal.

These gifts are not the same as the "differences of administrations" and the "diversities of operations". Which I will not go in to detail here.

Logic explained giftings properly. But I don't suppose you will apologize for not reading his comments with open eyes?

If you still think Paul is saying "the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts" then let us finish the chapter.

1 Corinthians 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: [b]and yet[/b] shew I unto you [b]a more excellent way[/b].

1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; [b]and though I have all faith[/b], so that I could remove mountains, [b]and have not charity, I am nothing[/b].

Ah, but what? All faith and "I am nothing" without charity (which is love).

With all of your explaining you said that Jesus is the light of the world and that Faith is the light of the world. And so, you have equated Jesus as the gift of Faith.

Isn't Jesus also Love? So Jesus is our Faith and Faith is Light and Love and Life?

Well, it would appear not to be true according to your calculations. For even with "All Faith", Paul says, "I am nothing" without Love.

You have misunderstood faith completely. Faith is not Christ. Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for: even "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Not Christ Himself, but rather Christ [b]in you[/b].



And, now, I will leave you with one final question for your critique.



If salvation is 100% God predestined. From start to middle to finish. All without man's concentual choice or free will, as you say.

Then why does Jesus say, Matthew 19:24, "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"?

Is anything too hard for the Lord? Is God a respector of persons? Is He?

Well, why does Jesus recognize a rating of difficulty for a rich man's salvation? If the rich man has no place in the orchestra of his salvation, as you say, why should there be a distinction for how difficult it is to get him saved?

How difficult for this rich man to be saved by God's Soveriegn Will, you ask?

"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" by God's Sovereign Will.

Hm?

Matthew 19:21. Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

[[b]Edit:[/b] Is Jesus tempting, or taunting, this rich man because He knows He can't do them? Mark 10:21, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him."

And, again, verse 24, And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, "Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!"

Why would men who trust in riches make it hard for God to bring them into heaven?]

Matthew 19:25-26. [...] "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

So, which is it?

[[b]Edit:[/b] It is not a question of "can God" but why the "rating of difficulty"? As Scripture also says,
Luke 6:20. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Why the distinction between rich men and poor men if man has no influence over God's Sovereign Salvation?]

[[b]quick Edits:[/b] I know you all be sneaky. So I wanted to make one last note about the focus of these questions, so there are hopefully no stray responses from the heart of the matter.]


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/5 0:17Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
boG wrote:
Quote:
"So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith."

Let me try and grasp this.

"dark faith" = with no light, not only is this faith prior to salvation but it is not able to receive salvation.

"dark faith" must be given "light" to "comprehend Grace" which this "dark faith" receives "through faith"

... What? You use the word "faith" without any solid consistency.

Do not try to figure out what Christinyou is saying.
He is in a "new Age" religion.
It's dificult to see at fist but once you read enough of his stuff, you will see it; As you read just then, this "dark faith"
and
"the christ 'birthed' in you"
and
faith being the light of the world instead of the Christian himself being the Light of the world.

Christinyou is very subtle in his new age philosigies, but that is the way some of them are, to suck you in with suductive words that sounds oh so very religious and someitimes beautifuly worded.

 2008/6/5 10:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
As to not being able to obey because you won't or don't desire to, please consider this example: If I asked you to forgive someone who tortured and murdered your spouse, a natural person would say "I can't" do that. The fact is they can but it would go against the grain of all their desires because they really want to kill the person who did that to their spouse.

Okay, you agree that there is ability, quit calling it an inability just because of a refusal to. It doesn't matter if it goes against the grain of all their desires.
You whole premise is that one can choose but just don't want to, and you call that not having free will.

Quote:
When a wicked man, who wants his will to rule his life, is asked to make God is Lord, he will answer I can't.

No, he only refuses, it is not an inability. Stop trying to make it so.
One is able to go against his own desires.

Quote:
Men can be told that if they will die to self, and make Jesus Lord they will live. Men, without a change of the wicked heart, say I would rather die then. In fact, one man and woman, even with an intellect and will that far exceeds yours or mine were told that if they eat the wrong fruit they will die, they desired the fruit anyway and discounted the truth and died. How you or I with much more limited personal resources could do better is beyond me.

One is able to go against his own desires. I do not want to go to work tomorrow; however, I choose to do it.

When I got married, I had to leave my wife in the Philippines for a year & a half right after our honeymoon.
Leaving her went against every grain of all my desires. I could have chosen to stay and make a living there, but that would not have been right.

I still chose to do that which was 100% against the grain of all my desires.
This disproves your whole basis of no free will.
All mankind is able to do what is right even when they don't want to.

Quote:
Your position that the will controls the heart is contrary to Scripture. Look at how Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit came about.


[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]for all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]
he lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world. [/color]
[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]
Eve followed the lusts of the flesh; She chose over that which she knew was right.

Quote:
First comes desire then comes choice then comes act. Now, after the fall, it is even worse, our choices through the will are slaves to the root of sin in our hearts before conversion, after conversion our choices of the will are slaves to the root of righteousness that has been planted in our hearts.

[b]Romans 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of disobedience unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/color]

This says that everyone has a choice of who's slave you choose to be.
Man must choose that which is right.

Quote:
The nature of man is found in the heart and not the will. We, like all of creation, choose and act (the will) according to our nature.

Man is responsible because of his will.
Since this is true, the will must be free.

Quote:
Finally, your distinction of the gift of faith by the Spirit isn't sensical.

Have you been used by the Holy Spirit in the "Gifts of the Spirit" which is written in 1Corinth 12?
How is it nonsense?

Quote:
It creates a limitation that isn't even in the text and the text is perfectly consistent that faith is a gift when compared with the other texts I cited.

Since you mishandled the texts that you cited, how do you think they are consistent?

Quote:
Your rationales for your position all stem from the same foundation, which is that the Scripture in your view implies free will and that then supersedes God's explicit sovereignty in salvation

Your view implies no free will.
How is man responsible without free will?

Furthermore, you have a wrong definition of sovereignty, and with that wrong definition of sovereignty you have the wrong view of weather the will is free or not.

Quote:
and that to find otherwise renders God a "tyrant".

Yes, your theology renders God a sadistic tyrant.

Quote:
The God I see in the Bible is sovereign in salvation and he is not a tyrant but a King. Psalm 110:3 "He made us willing in the day of His power".

You must take the correct definition of sovereignty instead of your current one.
Furthermore, kings can be tyrants as your theology portrays God.

 2008/6/5 10:34Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
andres wrote:

if you say faith is a mental assent of the mind then these people will never be saved because they have no understanding.

It's not "[b]if[/b]" faith being a mental assent. That is like saying "if" the bible is the Word of God.
Furthermore, understanding comes from learning. One ay learn of God and come to an understanding.


Quote:
if you say, in are person we have some sort of natural faith to believe upon God , then these people cant never be saved because the bible calls them covenant breakers which according to (stongs and vines) in the Greek means faithless can not keep a covenant.

That is where repentence comes in.

Quote:
we know all the world is guilty before God, and justice demands our punishment(rom 3:19) but by the grace of God the church of God is saved by Christ and his work( obedience, faith love (rom ch 5)( eph 5:25-27) for we have no strength ( faith, understanding) to save ourselves(rom 5:6) for our love for sin is greater than our love for God.

The love for God comes when one learns of what He has done after they are convicted by the law from a preacher.

Quote:
but, we have been placed in Christ by God(rom6:3-4), and know we have the power of the Spirit to do the things that God requires(phil 2:12-13) (Ezekiel 36:24-28).. Why? to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be the just and the justifier of him which believe upon Jesus(rom 3:25-26).

Why did he choose certain people then? God before the foundation of the world had certain people on His mind to elect

Again, by what criteria dose Hod use in choosing the "certain people"
How does HE choose without being arbitrary?

 2008/6/5 10:36Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, do you sincerely believe that your mind/will can control your nature? Why the need for a change in your nature described in Romans 3 and to be born again as Jesus described in John 3:1?

 2008/6/5 11:14Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy