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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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clintstone
Member



Joined: 2008/4/20
Posts: 201
tulsa,ok.

 Re:

none of the human race are born sinners God is not the author of sin ,the devil is no creater, sin is not anything constitutional.the result of sin is constitutional but not the sin itself. we christians are not sinners anymore we are saints a royal piesthood in Christ ALL has become new.our spirits souls and bodies preserved blameless unto His appearing .paul called himself perfect and holy and blameless many times . most misinterpretations of scripture would be cleared up if people would keep in mind that hthe bible never contradicts itself and that the word rightly divided never says man will always have sin in us until we physically die and nowhere is death viewed as a part of getting rid of sin .


_________________
Clint Demoret

 2008/6/3 17:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Logic, is this kinda what you are looking for in the criteria of God to choose the elect and predestinate them to salvation?

God's Predestination of the
Accomplishment of His Will

As explained in "The Principle of the Creation", Gen 1 to 4 the Purpose of the Creation is fulfilled only when man fulfills responsibility, which is to live in accordance with God's commandments. God's will for the Dispensation for Restoration, which is to fulfill his Purpose for the Creation, is absolute, and is therefore beyond human influence. Nevertheless, the fulfillment of his Will depends on man's fulfilling his responsibility. Then to what degree does God predestine the fulfillment of his Will? God's Will is absolute, but the realization
of his Will depends upon man's fulfilling his responsibility. God predestines that his Will is to be accomplished -- but only through
the accomplishment of both God's responsibility and that of the central person. We can say that man's responsibility is "5 percent"
and God's "95 percent" as a means of indicating that man's responsibility in fulfilling God's Will is very small compared with God's. However, in order to accomplish this "5 percent", man must put forth his 100 percent effort. Thus, God predestined that his Will was to be fulfilled when Adam and Eve fulfilled their responsibility not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree
of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17). In the dispensation for salvation through Jesus, God predestined that fallen man would fulfill
his responsibility when he believed in Jesus as the Messiah and followed him (Jn 3:16, Mt 19:21). Yet man has rarely carried out his
small portion of responsibility, and this has caused the fulfillment of God's Dispensation for Restoration to be delayed again and again.
As the following Bible passages show, even in our day-to-day life we receive God's saving grace only when we do our part: "... the prayer
of faith will save the sick man ..." (Jas 5:15); "'... your faith has made you well ...'" (Mk 5:34); "'For everyone who asks receives, and
he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened'" (Mt 7:8). Clearly, God predestines that his grace can be received only
when man accomplished his responsibility.

God's Predestination of the Central Person

In order for God's Will to be fulfilled, God must select someone to fulfill man's responsibility (as will be explained in "Overview of the
Principles of the dispensation for Restoration"). However, the person chosen by God may either fulfill his responsibility or fail to fulfill it. Thus, God does not predestine that a person will fulfill the role (mission) that God desires him to have. Then, does God predestine man at all, and if so, to what degree?
Yes, God does predestine man. When God predestines someone for a mission, he predestines that person "95 percent". In other words, he
predestines a person to the extent that when that person carries out his "5 percent" portion of responsibility, he is fully able to carry
out the mission for which he was chosen. Should a person fail to fulfill his responsibility, he cannot become the person that God wanted him to be, nor can God's will to fulfill things through him be realized.

For example, on the foundation of God's "95 percent preparation", God predestined that Adam and Eve become the True ancestors on the
condition that they fully carry out their responsibility. However, because of their failure to do so, God's Will was not fulfilled. As a result of this failure, it became necessary for God to send the Messiah as the True Father for mankind. God also predestined that
Judas Iscariot be Jesus' apostle on the condition that he carry out his responsibility by being loyal to Jesus. However, when Judas
betrayed Jesus, God's will remained unfulfilled, and God replace Judas with Matthias (Acts 1:15-26)Next, let us examine the factors which qualify a person to be chosen by God as the central person in the Dispensation for Restoration. First, the person must have been born of the central nation, the nation chosen to carry out the dispensation for Restoration. This is because the chosen people are closest to God in heart.

Second, that person must be descended from ancestors who have a history of righteousness. It is natural that for the fulfillment of
the Dispensation for Restoration God would choose those who have a long line of distinguished ancestors who have accumulated merit
through their sacrifice and service for the good of their fellow men.

Third, that person must be endowed with a natural disposition suited to the mission in question.

Fourth, that person must have acquired the proper education, training, and experience necessary to accomplish the mission.

Fifth, that person must have been born at the right time and place to carry out God's Will.

However, Even though a person may have all of these qualifications and be predestined by God for a particular mission, whether or not he
fulfills that mission is not predestined by God. Attaining and maintaining his role is determined by his fulfilling his responsibility.

If this is what you are looking for, then God fails and man has no chance of fulfillment, except in himself. Where is Christ in this?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/3 20:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Romans 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Corinthians 15:45-58 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

In Christ in the heavenlies: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/6/3 21:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic, I'll give you a couple of verses on faith as a gift from God set forth in Scripture:

1. ....in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom.12:3.

Why did you take the part out that puts it in context?

[b]Rom 12:3[/b] [color=990000]For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.[/color]
This is the "commone faith" that is of the "religion" as we find here:
[b]Eph 4:5[/b] [color=990000]One Lord, [b]one faith[/b], one baptism,[/color]

Notice Paul tells us to "prophesy according to the proportion of faith"(Rom 12:6).
Then Paul implies all these according to the proportion of faith:
to let us wait on our ministering: or he that teaches, on teaching; Or he that exhorts, on exhortation(7-8)

Quote:
2. ...for it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph2:8.

No one can prove anything in this verse if you understand the Greek structur og the verse.

The first half of the verse belongs together [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]
"through faith" functions as the “indirect object” clause of "are saved".
And [b]that[/b] (kai [b]touto[/b] in Greek) is in the neuter, and so refers not to "faith" (pistis in Greek) which is in the feminine or "by Grace" (charis in Greek feminine also, but to the whole state of affairs of "[color=990000]by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]"
I'll repeat ([b]that[/b]) in greek "touto" refers to the entire statement, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color] thus we could accurately paraphrase, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift[/color].

Quote:
3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23

It is not the faith that Paul is making the object of this salutation, it is the "peace and love", which should always be accompanied with faith.
Notice, it doesn't say, "Peace to the brothers and love [b]AND[/b] faith from God the Father"

This might proove your case, because the "and" is copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force, which would mean the faith is also from God.
However, the Greek word "meta" - "with" implies accompaniment.

You can not proove that faith is from God in this verse if taken in context and read corectly.

I'll even add an give the correct interpretation of another "pet verse" that y'all use to "proove" faith is a gift.
[b]Hebrews 12:2[/b] [color=990000]Looking to the Prince who leads us in our walk to completion, He is the very One who will complete our salvation by the glorification of our bodies[/color](Rom 8:23) [color=990000]who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.[/color]

Quote:
I'll be glad to also provide the passages that say that God grants repentance to the believer.

Go right ahead and I'll show how you mishandle them too.

Quote:
It seems to me that you would prefer to argue over your own perception of fairness and avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose.

I'm not discussiong "fairness" but justice and what is right, reasonable, logical, correct and that which lines up with reality, which you dismiss.

Your theology is illogical, unreasonable, unjust, and does not even line up with reality.

Furthermore, I do not "avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose"
I only correct the wrong interpretations that you make of them.

Quote:
I continue to marvel that there are many scriptural references to election on both a corporate and personal level in Scripture and no scriptural references to the concept of free will in salvation.

Your references are always taken out of context as I even proven above.
The only reason you do not see free will in salvation is because your erroneous interpretations, definitions of words and your acceptance of sadistical injustices from a tyranical diety.

Quote:
Why would God's sovereignty have to be so explicit yet you are perfectly comfortable with man's free will being completely implicit.

This is one of your erroneous definitions.
[b]God's sovereignty:[/b] The ultimate authority.
All mankind being accountable to HIM.

God's sovereignty is not the ultimate cause of every thing, not the ultimate domination of everything.

You deny free will because you think that if once must choose to obey, put their faith in/on Christ, and repent, you think that man has merited something.
I have proven the that is untrue.
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

We have “merited” nothing. We have not “benefited” God, or laid him under “obligation;” the slave who only does what he is commanded by his master to do has gained nothing.
All that we do is what is our “duty;” we cannot lay claim to having rendered any service that will “bind” him to show us favor.

You also think that if man must obey, put their faith in/on Christ, and repent, you thing that He saves himself by these.
Actualy the relationship with Christ is what saves because of these.

You als deny free will because you think it would diminish God's sovereignty. This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans. While in reality, free will magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

God's sovereignty is explicit, but you must knbow what it is.
Furtheremore, man's free will is also explicit.

 2008/6/3 22:03Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

I think every one would agree that we all have a measure of faith.

I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot inter the light, the light must come out of darkness.

So when is this faith in darkness, to be made the faith of Eph 2: 8, it must be given light to comprehend the Grace it is being given through faith. Twist it, change it, trample on it, but it is still the Faith of the Son of God that saves us by the Grace of God.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Israel's Faith was in darkness and they could not keep the law either their justification by faith was for the elect only.

The uncircumcision is saved through Faith that is given by God and the elect do believe and hear through faith that is the light of the world, which makes the Law void in the believer, the Law is still perfect and it is fulfilled in us by the Christ Seed we are born again with.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

It is all Him and in Him and of Him. Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

To change or body like His which is Gods work and renew our minds to the Mind of Christ which we have in us, is the Holy Spirits work. Just like He changes our faith, from faith to faith.

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is salvation in Christ and by the Grace of God through Faith. The Greek in its textual context might not be saying that it is the Faith of God, but the light must come out of darkness and be able to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. There is only one place where this Light can come from. It comes from the One that is Light in the hearts of men. This is the saving faith that is in Eph 2 unto salvation by Grace.

Even Isaiah speaks of this light. Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Specifically pointing to Jesus Christ who is the light of our Faith and the only Faith that can see the kingdom, for unless you are born again you cannot see, know, feel or hear the things of the kingdom of God.

Who the light hath shinned upon and who He is.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He truly is our light in the darkness and our faith is truly of Him, lest our faith still be in darkness and we stumble on the root out of dry ground and fall and end up as the seed fallen on the Side of the road and die.

By the Faith of Jesus Christ we are saved by Gods Great, Precious and the most costly Grace ever given, The Cross: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/3 23:33Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


clintstone wrote:

Quote:


none of the human race are born sinners God is not the author of sin ,the devil is no creater, sin is not anything constitutional.the result of sin is constitutional but not the sin itself. we christians are not sinners anymore we are saints a royal piesthood in Christ ALL has become new.our spirits souls and bodies preserved blameless unto His appearing .paul called himself perfect and holy and blameless many times . most misinterpretations of scripture would be cleared up if people would keep in mind that hthe bible never contradicts itself and that the word rightly divided never says man will always have sin in us until we physically die and nowhere is death viewed as a part of getting rid of sin .




what?




_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/3 23:53Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

sorry to repost, I don't yet understand how to format quotes and responses up right.



Quote:

Logic wrote:


Quote:
3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23

It is not the faith that Paul is making the object of this salutation, it is the "peace and love", which should always be accompanied with faith.
Notice, it doesn't say, "Peace to the brothers and love [b]AND[/b] faith from God the Father"

This might proove your case, because the "and" is copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force, which would mean the faith is also from God.
However, the Greek word "meta" - "with" implies accompaniment.

Whyme response; Since faith "accompanies" love, which it always does, please now interpret the words "from God" if you would.


The only reason you do not see free will in salvation is because your erroneous interpretations, definitions of words and your acceptance of sadistical injustices from a tyranical diety.

Whyme response: I'm not trying to preach here and forgive me for admonishing you but, if I am right (along with alot of other reformed believers ) then your words are really poorly chosen. If the reformed view is wrong, however, I don't think God is going to hold our view against us because our motive is to be truthful to the light we've been given and to honor God.



God's sovereignty is not the ultimate cause of every thing, not the ultimate domination of everything.

Whyme response: Could not disagree more.
.






You als deny free will because you think it would diminish God's sovereignty.

Whyme response: No I don't. It wouldn't bother me one bit if God ceded his sovereignty to man by His own eternal fiat.

This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as freedom to choose or even free will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans.

Whyme response: Not at all. Man exercises his will and God uses that. What fundamentally appears bothersome to you is that God would change a man's own wicked heart to a heavenly one without man's permission and/or if He does do that that He doesn't do that for everyone. I don't struggle with those things because I trust God is always good, always just and always does right.




Furtheremore, man's free will is also explicit.



I can't find explicit references to free will in salvation anywhere in the Bible.

 2008/6/4 8:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
I can't find explicit references to free will in salvation anywhere in the Bible.

Here is a few.
I am sure you could have found these yourself, but I am also sure that your theology is hindering you.

[b]Deuteronomy 11:26[/b] [color=990000]Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
[b]27[/b] A blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
[b]28[/b] And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which you have not known.[/color]

[b]Deuteronomy 30:15[/b] [color=990000]See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil;
[b]16[/b] In that I command you this day to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and the LORD your God shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it.
[b]17[/b] But if your heart turns away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;[/color]

[b]1King 18:21[/b] [color=990000]And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long do you halt between two opinions? if the LORD is God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.[/color]

[b]Joshua 24:15[/b] [color=990000]And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.[/color]

[b]Isaiah 1:19[/b] [color=990000]If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:
[b]20[/b] But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword:[/color]

[b]Jeremiah 21:8[/b] [color=990000]And unto this people you shall say, Thus says the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.
[b]9[/b] He that abides in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goes out, and falls to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prize.
[b]10[/b] For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, says the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire.[/color]

 2008/6/4 11:30Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

You have obviously pointed out various scriptures that support the proposition that God commands men to choose. That is not an explicit statement that men's wills are "free". God commands perfect obedience to His holy law. We could certainly choose to do it but we don't. Why? The Bible says why. Because our hearts desire the darkness over the light. The will merely chooses the route that satisfies the desires of the heart.

By the way, I found what seems to be good support for the proposition that faith is a gift of God. 1Cor.12:9 says, I think, that the Holy Spirit gives faith to individuals like other gifts such as wisdom, knowledgle, miraculous powers, healing, tongues, etc.

 2008/6/4 11:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
I think every one would agree that we all have a measure of faith.

I think we all would agree we are in darkness before salvation.

Then it must compute that the measure of faith we all have is in darkness, where there is no light.

What does it matter where the faith is as long as one does as commanded and put that faith in/on Christ?

Quote:
This is not the Faith God wants to give us salvation by, for darkness cannot inter the light, the light must come out of darkness.

It is not a matter of where the faith is comming from, it is not a matter of who's faith it is, it ia only a matter fo who or what the faith is in/on.

Any one can see light from with in darkness, and the Scriptures do not say anywhere that someone can not come into the light.
Actualy, mankind are commanded to, this implies the ability.

Quote:
Israel's Faith was in darkness and they could not keep the law either their justification by faith was for the elect only.

Actualy, they had no faith, not that their faith was in darkness.
Please, stop your twisting the Scriptures.

Quote:
To change or body like His which is Gods work and renew our minds to the Mind of Christ which we have in us, is the Holy Spirits work.

The reserection is that which changes our body(Rom 8:23, 1Jonn 3:2, Php 3:21, 1Corinth 15:42-44, 1Corinth 15:48-54.
Please, stop your twisting the Scriptures.

 2008/6/4 11:56Profile





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