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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Wonderful teaching intrcssr83, Both downloads are right on.

Thank you for them.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/3 2:42Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: All see

It is disappointing to me that you believe Spurgeon is supporting your view of "election".

Quote:
but the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens



I will post it again,
Acts 17:27
That they should [[b][u]ALL[/b][/u]] seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

Speaking of eyes being opened, how about this Scripture.

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

"Redemption" is another word for "salvation". They mean the same thing.

So exactly what do you mean by "redemption" that it should come "before salvation"?

What do you think of this following Scripture?

Quote:
John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.



According to you, "the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens", therefore, since God has not opened their eyes they are all blind and have no sins.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/3 4:17Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:


How it a sincere offer if God knows thay "can't choose" with out His "effectual grace"

What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will give that effectual grace"?

Round and round we go with no correct answer, all because they are traped by their own theology that CAN NOT admit the truth of the answer.




Logic,

You confuse the means of salvation with your own concept of the "criteria" of salvation. In order to be saved you must repent and believe. You make that a criteria, I suggest they are means of salvation. In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted. I say that prayer is a means to God's purposes being accomplished, not a cause. You carefully avoid the word cause and instead use the word criteria. Same difference to me. It has always been a man centered activity to change the means into the cause. The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.

 2008/6/3 8:02Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


whyme wrote:

Quote:


In order to be saved you must repent and believe.





Yep, that pretty much sums up this entire thread.

Repent and believe. Continue to repent, continue to believe. Turn from your wickedness and repent. Accept Jesus and obey Him. Honor the Father in heaven like the Son honors Him.

This is the message of the Gospel.

Do this, and you will be saved.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/3 11:57Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:

How it a sincere offer if God knows thay "can't choose" with out His "effectual grace"

What is the criteria that God uses to choose whom He will give that effectual grace"?

Round and round we go with no correct answer, all because they are traped by their own theology that CAN NOT admit the truth of the answer.

Logic,

You confuse the means of salvation with your own concept of the "criteria" of salvation. In order to be saved you must repent and believe.

Yes, I know that. they are a couple of the criteria.
However, you then say that repentence and daith must, first, be given before anyone can put their faith on Christ and repent.

That demands the same question as the original.
By what criteria does God use to decide whom HE will give repentance and faith?

Quote:
You make that a criteria, I suggest they are means of salvation.

They are the means in wich God saves, elects, redeems, delivers...ect...
However, they are nesesary for God to save, otherwise he will not.

Will He save anyone who refuses to put faith on HIM?
if so, how?

Will He save anyone who refuses to repent?
if so, how?

will he make anyone want to be save by domination, tyrany, or userping their mind?

Quote:
In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted. I say that prayer is a means to God's purposes being accomplished, not a cause.

Preyer is of the relaitionship that we have with God.
God requires prayer to for us to know Him and relate with Him.
Is it not true that if one does not pray, he will not reciev?
If it is God's will for you to have something and you do not ask for it, will you receive it?
James says no(James 4:2-3).
Therefore God's "purposes will be thwarted.
However, His ultimate purpose will not be.

Quote:
You carefully avoid the word cause and instead use the word criteria.

Yes, with out using criteria for the cause, it would be arbitrary.
What do you think arbitrary is?
do you actualy think God is arbitrary in His decisions?

Quote:
Same difference to me.

It is not realy.
Try to decide anything without the criteria being the cause for what you choose.
if you do not, all you have is an arbitrary decision that has no preference or reason.

Quote:
It has always been a man centered activity to change the means into the cause.

Actualy the criteria is the means by wich God uses to decide.

How else couyld it be with out being arbitrary?

Quote:
The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.

How do you get passed the fact that [b]IF[/b] faith and repentance was a gift that must be given first, God wouyld be responcible fore the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world?

How do you get passed the fact that [b]IF[/b] faith and repentance was a gift, God is angry at people for that which HE will not give?

If God commands faith and repentance, why wouldn't He give it instead of condemning?

You run into a lot of trouble making faith and repentance a gift that must be given first.

Fact is that faith, repentance and obediance are not meritable.
[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

We have “merited” nothing. We have not “benefited” God, or laid him under “obligation;” the slave who only does what he is commanded by his master to do has gained nothing.
All that we do is what is our “duty;” we cannot lay claim to having rendered any service that will “bind” him to show us favor.

Faith, repentance and obediance do not save anyone, they only provide reception for the relationship with Chrit which saves.

The ones who refuse to have faith, repentance and obediance are condemn for their rebelion.

You have God condemning just because He wants to for no reason at all.
Sure we are all sinners, but so are the elect compared to the non-elect. What makes the elect to be chosen over the non-elect without being arbitrary?

 2008/6/3 12:17Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, I appreciate the debate but it really isn't a useful one if you won't address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed. Further, if that in fact is possible, then His purposes aren't arbitrary just because He doesn't reveal them to me.. Is that possible?

God always wills what is good, just and righteous because that is His character. If He does something, like election, I have God given faith that what he has done is consistent with His character even if I don't understand it with my very puny intellect.

 2008/6/3 13:29Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic, I appreciate the debate but it really isn't a useful one if you won't address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed.

They are revieled, you just can not admit them because of your theology.
I even prooved from sound reasoning why Faith, repentenc and obedience are the criteria, and why they can not be "gifts".

You have no reason for not agreeing but your own pride in your theology.

Quote:
Further, if that in fact is possible, then His purposes aren't arbitrary just because He doesn't reveal them to me.

He has revield them, but you have been clouded in yoiur mind by unreasonable theories.

Your theology will not let you even answer these reasonable questions:
How do you get passed the fact that IF faith and repentance was a gift that must be given first, God would be responcible fore the faithlessness and unrepentance of the world?

How do you get passed the fact that IF faith and repentance was a gift, God is angry at people for that which HE will not give?

If God commands faith and repentance, why wouldn't He give it instead of condemning?

They are only commone sence answeres.
Quote:
If He does something, like election, I have God given faith that what he has done is consistent with His character

You are only being stuborn to reason.

Answer my questions above to proove that your faith is "God given"

Isn't it if HE didn't give you that "gift of faith", you would be inoccent for not trusting Him?

Quote:
even if I don't understand it with my very puny intellect.

God is able...
...to let you understand...

...if you only ask with a pure heart.

 2008/6/3 14:34Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
In much the same way you would say that God requires prayer to work in this world and therefore, without prayer, God's purposes would be thwarted.


God has been working in this world long before and without man ever praying. Prayer is not powerful because we multiply our words. But because we have a prayer-hearing God. And let it be known that Jesus, our High Priest, is ever praying and interceeding for the world.

It is interesting to me that you believe that salvation is -- 100% God and 0% man

and then say -- God cannot do any work (0%) in this world unless man is praying (100%).

Does that not seem strange to you?

Quote:
The effort to turn faith from a gift of God and a means of God into an act of man caused by man is where we part paths on this issue.


You have completely misunderstood what we have been discussing. Faith is given in measure, as a gift of God, to ALL men. This is Scriptural you can read it for yourself. Then God says, "Choose this day whom you will serve!"

You have run from one extreme doctrine, that salvation is 100% man (which is a lie), to the opposite extreme that salvation is 100% God (which is a lie).

The MEANS of salvation is indeed 100% provided by God in Christ. However, the effectual power of salvation is unity between man and God, in Christ.

Unity, to say, man and God working together as One Spirit in Christ Jesus.

What you need to do is take your concept of all of salvation being 100% God and your concept of all of prayer being 100% man and unite these two together. When you do this then you will have a balanced theology in harmony with Scripture.

Quote:
Faith, repentance and obediance do not save anyone, they only provide reception for the relationship with Christ which saves.


The act of salvation is by grace through faith. Faith being a gift of God which ALL men have already received.

Even the smallest measure of faith, the size of a mustard seed, can cast down entire mountains. The smallest measure of grace, likewise, can save even the most destitute of sinners.

There is no such thing as faith or grace that is "not effectual". There is only faith and grace that is not used by men to glorify Christ Jesus.

When that faith is exercised by men to seek God's Face then God will be found by them, for He shall reveal Himself. This "being found" is by grace through faith and results in salvation. Initially this is called being "born-again" by the Word of Christ. And this salvation being a "seed". A seed which needs to grow, being buried, hidden, in faith. As the Scripture says, "work out your salvation with fear and trepidation."

"Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." God guides, directs, and gives everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. But it is in our hands to be diligent with all that He has given us. All that is required of a steward is that he be faithful.

Matthew 18
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, [b]I forgave thee all[/b] that debt, [b]because thou desiredst me[/b]:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, [b]if ye from your hearts[/b] forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Hear these powerful words. "If you from your hearts". If you will not forgive then God will not forgive you. If you will forgive from your hearts, so will God forgive you from His Heart in Christ Jesus.

This is unity, working together.

Read the Bible and see:
If you will...
THEN I WILL, sayeth the LORD.

And what are the "if you will"'s? Obey the Voice of the Lord and submit yourself to His Will. God's will is that none should perish but all have everlasting life. Therefore, the Father sent His Son. He provided the means of salvation for all men to receive and haply come to Him; even as a mothen hen gathers her chicks. The chicks come and the mother hen gathers. Sinners repent and Jesus brings them to His Father. Working hand-in-hand together to His glory.

I am confused how it can be so disgusting for many of you to believe that a depraved man would forsake his own way and deny himself, take up his cross, and daily follow Jesus.

Why are you all so against a man desiring to know God and seek Him and please Him and be found in Him? FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN BECAUSE THE FATHER LOVED THAT WRETCHED SINNER AS HE LOVED HIS OWN SON CHRIST JESUS!

You say, God has to put that desire to be saved in the "elect". Well, why didn't He put that same desire in the condemned? He died for the condemned too, didn't He?

Didn't He die for all men for all time? That none should perish?

Is it God's will for man to be saved? Yes.
Does God give all that man needs to be saved? Yes.
Is God the Author and Perfector of the work? Yes.

The Lamb who was slain is worthy to receive the reward of His Sufferings! I tell you the truth that not a billion universes could ever begin to repay the debt of love we owe Him! And still how many billions of souls from this one planet will be cast down into hell completely and utterly contrary to the will of God and forbidding the Lamb His JUST REWARD!

Such is the Love of God towards us! That He pleads with every man, come unto Me all of you who are weary and heavy-laden! My yoke is easy and My burden is kind, I will give you rest for your souls!

My God is worthy to receive every last man unto Himself for eternity for His Name sake. Yet, such is His love, that even if not one man ever loved Him in return, He would have died for us all the same!

Your god who "opens the eyes" of some with "effectual grace" and leaves blind the rest of the world with, what must be, "ineffective grace" is despicable to my heart. Every man who denies Christ is not a blind man but a monster of iniquity who loves his sin and wants to stay in it! He isn't blind he is selfish!

If Jesus says you are blind, He isn't saying because you do not see Him. But because you do not see your self! Who you are without Christ!

Perhaps, I am simply preaching to the choir. But I have at least learned one thing. It is impossible NOT to love someone you have wept for in prayer. I wonder if you know the burden? If you know the agony? I assure you God has given every man sight to see Him and faith to know Him and extended out salvation to every sinful heart. O, How the Father rejoices over even a single sinner saved! All of heaven rejoices with Him!

1 Peter 4:18. AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER ?

And what "difficulty" is there in your doctrine of "salvation"? You who leaves every man's free will to God sovereignty. You say, He will do it all, even make your decisions for you.

If any man lacks wisdom, LET HIM ASK of God, who gives!

If God were to do it all, with such ease would this salvation business be. But God casts His Pearls, even Jesus Christ, before the swine of men, that we are; hoping against hope that we will but heed His Word.

Tell me, what is all this wasted paper in my Bible that pleads with me to humble myself and pray, to turn from my wicked ways and seek His face? What are these wasted words that say Jesus died so that not one single man should perish?

You say, Jesus died for every man ... except those He didn't allow to know He died for them.

NONSENSE! I will not have any part of that lie!

My Jesus suffered and died and went down to the pit of hell and up again in triumphant glory and HE DIDN'T DO IT IN A DARK CORNER! His resurrection wasn't a secret!

Don't tell me God hasn't given every man eyes to see and faith by which they may know Him. Don't blame my Jesus for the exceeding sinfulness of men's hearts.

He loves everyone
Died for everyone
Weeps for everyone
Pleads with everyone

He is ever at the ready to save each and everyone who will but cease from their own wicked way.

Just because God knows who will be saved, and works everything to the good for them, doesn't mean He took away any of our ability or choice to outright hate Him and not turn from our wicked ways. Every sin committed is with emnity to the knowledge of God. Even we who are saved, how much more grievious are our sins who have received Christ in our hearts? With such difficulty are we saved!

Have you no compassion for this eternally condemned world? This pitiful existence of sinners?

How could you? They can't "see" anyways, "the elect alone are they whose eyes God opens". I don't suppose what the sinner can't see won't bother your conscience. While you boast of walking on streets of glory and feasting on the Bread of Heaven. And, they, unending torment in a Christless existence.

There is nothing more beautiful this side of eternity than a man who [b]freely wills[/b] the Will of God in Christ. "Not my will, but Thine be done!" Your theology has no part of this because man has no part (0%) in your "salvation".


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/3 16:03Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
address whether God can purpose something with reasons of his own that aren't revealed.


Genesis 18
17. And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18. Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19. For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


How much then shall God withhold from those He has already given His Son? Who have received the "Promise of Abraham."

Psalms 103:7. He made known His ways to Moses,
His acts to the sons of Israel.

John 15:15, No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing.

If you do not know what your Master is doing perhaps ought to judge yourself whether you are still a slave.

Galatians 4:1. Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/3 16:05Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, I'll give you a couple of verses on faith as a gift from God set forth in Scripture:

1. ....in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. Rom.12:3.

2. ...for it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph2:8.

3. Peace to the brothers and love with faith from God the Father. Eph 6:23

Those should do for now. I'll be glad to also provide the passages that say that God grants repentance to the believer. It seems to me that you would prefer to argue over your own perception of fairness and avoid scriptural language that seems to stand for the propositions you oppose. I continue to marvel that there are many scriptural references to election on both a corporate and personal level in Scripture and no scriptural references to the concept of free will in salvation. Why would God's sovereignty have to be so explicit yet you are perfectly comfortable with man's free will being completely implicit.

 2008/6/3 17:11Profile





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