SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 Next Page )
PosterThread
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"""Christinyou wrote:
How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This answer is one of the criteria.
Good Job!!!
However, you turn around a say this In the "The More Excellent Way" thread:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe."""

Yes, it is the inheritance of Christ given by the Father for the obedience unto death on the Cross that has save a wretch like me. The power of His Glory in the Saints, the same power that was in the resurrection that lifts us up that we might believe and be resurrected with Him after our death with Him, for, we are crucified with Him, died to sin with Him, lifted out of the grave with Him, and Him birthed in us, that we might be called the son's of God by His Incorruptable Seed.

We are spiritually clean and justified, redeemed, wise unto the things of God, and righteous, being made all these things by He that is in us, Made of God for this purpose. That we might have eternal life in Him because we believe, His pure power of resurrection power,



Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

So how do we not get Jesus? All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Without God's intervention and calling none would be saved.
Believe not and you will not be saved. Who is responsible for the faith to believe if our faith cannot believe. It must be the Faith of God in Christ Jesus imparted to us that we might believe, or none would be saved. In that it is also Gods perfect choice to choose some to destruction and some to election as son's. All will die in Satan their father and only the elect will live in their Father God through His Christ.

Romans 9:18-24 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Mercy, His choice. Called, His choice. He is God and His choice and calling are true and Just in His own being the God of His own creation.

All don't believe, none 0, sip. But those that do believe by the intervention of God in Christ Jesus will be will be saved. His choice is all that is needed.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/1 1:50Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
that has saved a wretch like me



Now we are getting somewhere! :)

God is calling all men unto repentance.

Everyone, everyone, everyone is called by God.

God has mercy on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Everyone, everyone, everyone receives mercy from God.

Ezekiel 33:11
As I live, saith the Lord GOD,
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;
for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


The difference:
John 9:41
Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.

Matthew 9
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12. But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, [b]I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance[/b].

When the Holy Spirit is come, He shall convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment.

The "self-righteous" shall say to himself "I am well" and so his sin shall remain because he says in his heart, "I do not need the Physician". And so he hardens his heart against the testimony of God and calls Him a liar.

Luke 18
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, [b]God be merciful to me a sinner[/b].
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; [b]and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted[/b].

Justified = "to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit. To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin."

This sinner said as Paul, "I am the chiefest of sinners" and only Christ can save me from this "wretched man that I am"!

As the beautiful hymn, Rock of Ages, goes,
"Thou must save, and thou alone!

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die."

Without the conviction of sin, righteous, and/or judgment there can be [b][u]NO[/b][/u] salvation.

It is possible to know, I am a sinner, and not be convicted. It is possible to be grieved that, I am a sinner, and not be convicted unto repentance. God is not a liar nor did Christ die needlessly.

If you want to be one of God's "elect" than you must believe what God says about you. Just as much, as you believe what He says about Himself.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/1 3:44Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:[/
Quote:
Christinyou wrote:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
How do we get Jesus?

Believe that He is the Son of God and you will be saved and born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God the Father.

Quote:
I wrote:
This answer is one of the criteria.
Good Job!!!

However, you turn around a say this In the "The More Excellent Way" thread:Quote:
Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe.

The contrast to this is:
Faith in Christ, NOT given by the Father that some can't believe.

This begs the question, what is the criteria for God to choose whom to give faith?



Faith in Christ, given by the Father that we might believe."""

Yes, it is the inheritance of Christ given by the Father...

So how do we not get Jesus? All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Without God's intervention and calling none would be saved.

Believe not and you will not be saved. Who is responsible for the faith to believe if our faith cannot believe. It must be the Faith of God in Christ Jesus imparted to us that we might believe, or none would be saved. In that it is also Gods perfect choice to choose some to destruction and some to election as son's.
All don't believe, none 0, sip. But those that do believe by the intervention of God in Christ Jesus will be will be saved. His choice is all that is needed.

O.k

Your fist answer is wrong bacause you hold to your theology.

Therefore, answer the question correctly.

Also, by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give HIS faith to?

By the way, it does not do one(1) lick of good for you to quote all that Scripture, because it does not back-up what you propose.

Get serious, and answer the question if your going to continue posting on this thread.

You can not give an answer that begs the same question.

 2008/6/1 10:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
boG wrote:
Quote:
that has saved a wretch like me

Now we are getting somewhere! :)

Not realy. He still thinks that God must first give that person the attitude which says, "that has saved a wretch like me"

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?

 2008/6/1 10:07Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: obedience

Read the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. Note that Jesus does not call this a parable. It is likely that Jesus is testifying to something that actually happened.

The son:
"And when he came to himself."
"He arose, and came to his father."

The father:
"But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."
"The father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

Jesus:
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

P.S.
Have you ever heard Keith Green's "The Prodigal Son Suite"?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/1 13:39Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote, Logic wrote:

"""Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

boG wrote:Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

that has saved a wretch like me
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now we are getting somewhere! :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not realy. He still thinks that God must first give that person the attitude which says, "that has saved a wretch like me"

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?"""

By His own immutable counsel, which is in Himself, that being "I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world", being you had not sinned yet and still I chose you to be in Christ Jesus. (My own thoughts for the witness that is in me.) I don't assume to speak for God, but this is what I hear Him say.

He knew that I would sin and He knew I would not be able to be reconciled to Him my Creator in my own flesh, being I could not chose Him, because our father Adam chose another god, who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him and this time being a born again son of Royalty a living breathing royal son of God, Heirs with Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son The Father birthed. I had to be rebirthed that I might be a son rebirthed. He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him, that is why He chose the way He did. When I get to heaven I might ask Him why He did it, if He does not reveal it to me now as I am a born again son of God by the Son that is in me, it is His Seed that make me a son of God.
I am a new creature, not of this world and in my spirit which is the Spirit of Jesus Christ I am His and already set with Him in the heavenlies.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I personally am still stunned that He would place the Incorruptable Seed, Jesus Christ Himself in me. That I might be called a son of God and brother to Jesus Christ who is God Himself. I did not deserve it I was lost and did no want to be found, and did not even know I was lost.

I have the witness in myself, that I am His and He is mine.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

He gave that record and put that record in my heart that I might believe.

Quote: Logics question:

Therefore, you must ask; by what criteria does God use to choose whom HE will give that attitude to?

By His criteria, which I know not, because in my estimation, I have no right to be saved and cannot understand why He chose to save me and not someone else that was better that I. I am wretched in all that I was and He made me pure by His Son birthed in me, who gave me life that I might now live unto God and not Satan and self, for once I was dead but now I am alive.

Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

The Law was given so sin might become exceedingly sinful. It Killed me, from the very first one, "Don't eat".

Chosen in Christ before I ever became exceedingly sinful, by His own will and immutable choice, I live.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/6/1 23:11Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Quote:
"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world", being you had not sinned yet and still I chose you to be in Christ Jesus.


That statement is altogether amiss. God is not bound in time. To say, "being you had not sinned yet" is to say there was a time when God was not Omnipresent in all of time and space. You are trying to say that because "in time" you had not been born yet to sin, God was therefore able to choose you. Do I even need to explain how this is wrong?

Scriptures say, rather, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Therefore, He did not choose us because we "had not sinned yet" but simply because He loved us (1 John 10). God chose us regardless of sin. His choosing us had nothing to do with our sin.

You may as well exchange the word "being" for "because", as you are attempting to give criteria for why God elected you (being --because-- you had not sinned yet), only this criteria is unscriptural.

Quote:
(My own thoughts for the witness that is in me.) I don't assume to speak for God, but this is what I hear Him say.


The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are indeed children of God. He is saying "You are mine!" That is to say, you are hearing Him correctly, if indeed you have His witness in you. However, you are trying to make the witness of the Spirit of adoption to imply more than what He does.

The Spirit says,
"I chose you to be in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) -- [b]Period[/b].
He didn't say that other stuff.

Quote:
another god, who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him.


All of this disturbs me, it is wrong.
You are blaming Satan for man's crimes against God. This is unscriptural. This is the same as claiming that if God could get Israel out of Egypt then they would have a right relationship with Him. Do you know what happened when God took Israel out of Egypt? (hint: golden idol.)

Jesus said, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." He did not say, "you are unwitting slaves to the devil. If only I could get you away from his influence you would be perfect." Did he? It certainly would be convenient for sinners if this were true. It is not true.

Quote:
being I could not choose Him, because our father Adam chose another god


How exactly does Adam's disobedience make it impossible for us to choose God? How many times do you think the OT says to obey God and serve Him only?

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Sorry, but your doctrine simply isn't Christian. Man is to blame for his sin and shall be held accountable for all of his own sins (Deuteronomy 24:16) that are not crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20). If we were "unable to choose Him" because of any influence that was independant of ourselves (anything outside of our own will) then sinners could not be justifiably judged.

Quote:
He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him


This is true, God is the Author and Finisher of our salvation. He made the plan and then he purchased it with His own Blood and gives it freely to whosoever believes on His Son unto eternal life. And man is indeed without excuse against the Righteous Judgment of God. As the Psalmist said, "Against You, You only, I have sinned and done what is evil in Your sight, so that You are justified when You speak and blameless when You judge."

Quote:
I did not deserve it I was lost and did not want to be found, and did not even know I was lost.


No, you did not deserve it; none of us do.

Yes, you were lost.

Why didn't you want to be found?
John 3:20
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

If this is why you did not want to be found then your statement is scriptural.

You didn't know you were lost?
Well, when the Light exposed your deeds, what happened? Did you realize you were lost? Indeed you did; and, then what? You changed your mind about not wanting to be found because the One who found you came to save you. Am I wrong?

So there was a time when you did not know you were lost. Nor did you want to be found because that would mean you were acknowledging yourself a lost sinner condemned to hell. Which simply isn't convenient knowledge to those who are perishing. But, you came to yourself, as the Prodigal Son did, seeing that you were lost. And also seeing that the reason you were lost was because you were without Christ.

Upon this rock, this revelation, you also did desire to be found. Otherwise you would not have asked Jesus to save you. As the Scripture says, "you have not because you ask not."

Quote:
By His criteria, which I know not, because in my estimation, I have no right to be saved and cannot understand why He chose to save me and not some else that was better than I.


Why God set His affection on men is indeed a mystery.

Deuteronomy 7
6. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8. [b]But because the LORD loved you[/b], and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Why God loves ALL men is a mystery. Why God died for ALL men is a mystery. It is the Mystery of God's Love. Yet, let it not be misunderstood, for the Love of God hates sinners and iniquity (Psalm 5:5).

Now, the "WHY" God loves is a mystery. But it is no mystery when God says plainly, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [b]whosoever believeth in him[/b] should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Do you believe that what God "really" meant to say is "whosoever I choose to make believeth in Me should not perish"?

Is this what you believe?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/2 3:07Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

boG wrote:
By the way, I am confused by this line of questioning whyme.

Quote:
If you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect.



Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it. The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not. Are you intending to correlate God's creation of created things to His criteria of who will be received into heaven or hell?

If so, I will be interested to hear what you have to say.





I wrote the question in response to the implications in Logic's statements that God would be arbitrary in election of some if He did not reveal his criteria to us for His choice of some rather than others. My point was that there is no "cirteriA" given by God in who or what He creates in the first instance and I don't believe Logic would call creation arbitrary. Hence, in electing some to salvation wtihout revealed criteria or purpose does not make God arbitrary.

 2008/6/2 8:30Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic, if you will tell me God's criteria in the creation of created things then I will tell you His criteria in the creation of the elect./quote][b]what is God's criteria for choosing to create everything?[/b]

If I may quote another for your answer:
"Creation as a whole is created as God was pleased to so make it.
The distinction here is that man is capable of displeasing God, and the universe is not."

Now, tell me His criteria in the creation of the elect as you said you would.
Thanx.




So you have agreed that God is not arbitrary in creating the universe, including mankind, where he did so because he was "pleased to". My answer to your question is really a definition of Grace..... God gives repentence and faith to those whom He chooses out of His own pleasure without regard to merit or the creature meeting certain criteria. He chooses to save before eternity and then His Son must die to meet God's perfect justice so that God, the judge of the earth, can be merciful and gracious and still do right.

 2008/6/2 8:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:

By His own immutable counsel,

[b]PLEASE GET A DICTIONARY!!![/b]
Quite giving arbitrary answers!!!

Do yu not know this is an arbitrary answer, or are you just teasing me?

Quote:
He knew that I would sin and He knew I would not be able to be reconciled to Him my Creator in my own flesh,

He knew that all man kind would sin, what makes the difference that God chose you than the one who dies in their sin?
What is the standard of judgment or criticism that God uses to choose by HIS “immutable counsel”
Or
What rule or method does God God uses to choose by HIS “immutable counsel”?
What are the determining characteristic of the elect compared to the non-elect that HE would choose one over the other?

[b]Christinyou[/b], you can not give an answer that needs an answer of the same question.

You will never be able to answer these questions correctly with your current theology.

Quote:
being I could not chose Him, because our father Adam chose another god,

What doe s it mater that our father Adam chose another God?
How would that cause you not to be able?

I know that you will not be able to answer these questions correctly eather.

Quote:
who would not let go of his possession unless he was forced to and then and only then could I be brought back into a right relationship with Him and this time being a born again son of Royalty a living breathing royal son of God, Heirs with Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son The Father birthed.

So, you agree that you think salvation is “forced on people”.

Quote:
He did it by His own immutable counsel and will. His criteria is His and His alone

We know that, it’s not the issue, what are “His own” criteria?

Quote:
and man cannot make any excuse, or take it away from Him, that is why He chose the way He did.

Okay, what way did HE choose?

Quote:
When I get to heaven I might ask Him why He did it, if He does not reveal it to me now as I am a born again son of God by the Son that is in me, it is His Seed that make me a son of God.

So, your saying that you don’t know, then you can not say that I am wrong.
Why are you attempting to answer if you don’t know?
Why not just say, “I don’t know”?
Why are you trying to say that I am wrong if you don’t know?

Quote:
By His criteria, which I know not,

Then why are you posting on this thread?
Is it just to annoy me?
Is it to spread your illogical, unreasonable theology/doctrine?

You know that theology must always line up with reality, since yours doen’t, why to you continue to grasp on to it?

Quote:
and He made me pure by His Son birthed in me,

Why do you continue in the heresy that He is “birth” in you?

Quit posting in this thread, Please.

Your not doing anything but throwing nonsence, twisted scriptures, herassey(Christ "birthed" in you), and annoyance.

 2008/6/2 15:11Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy