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andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?
No, that is wrong!--logic
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.--logic
Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity. --logic

SCRIPTURE:
.. "IS it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is thine eye evil becasue I am good? So the last SHALL be first and the first sahll be last... For many be called but few are chosen.. MATT 20:15-16


_________________
andy

 2008/5/29 16:07Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:


"""According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)"""

God says He chose those that are to be regenerated before the foundation of the world.

We do reach the truth, it is line upon line and precept upon precept. How can we even see or understand the things of the Kingdom if we are not born again. These precepts and line upon line are taught by the Holy Spirit that has been given by the Christ that is birthed in us and in the answered prayer of Jesus Christ from the Father. One would not know what to repent of or why to be baptized if it were not for the regeneration act of God and the birth of His Son in the Believer who the Holy Spirit has convicted of sin and given the ability to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, since none would unless this process is acted upon by God the Father who reveals the Son is He Himself is the Son of God, and They are in each other with the Holy Spirit as One God. Your earthly Father did not ask your permission to give you birth, either does your Heavenly Father.

Holy Spirit, by Whom no one can say Jesus is Lord, without Him.

Without regeneration and the new birthing by the Christ in you, you cannot say Jesus is Lord, or be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Whom Christ promised us the "another Comforter", and also He Himself will not leave us alone, He will come again, birthed in the son's of God. The only Father of every son of God, who are the sons'? Those that are born of their Father God, not a created earthly satanic father but the living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Father of Jesus Christ and me also by my Father a birthed son of God.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Now you can believe line upon line and precept upon precept and as you say, "assend" unto sonship.

Ephesians 3:5-14 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Mystery is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

If you don't understand the birthing, you cannot understand the new creature we have become, and that keeps us in the works of man salvation, which is the lie of Satan and has been from the beginning.

Why are we forgiven, not for our goodness, but for Christ's sake.

Ephesians 4:30-32 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Do you Logic really read the Word of God, or do you just skim over the comments of others and bring your worldly philosophical answers to the table to prove you are right.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.

How can anyone be save by his own faith when God says, "we are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves". Grace is of God and the Faith that saves is of God also.

How can you dispute the truth, if that is what you are searching for.

Ephesians 1:1-14 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Who's Glory?

God's Glory given to us by the birthing of His Son in us, who is our glory, the only Hope we have.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip





_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/29 16:17Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?- logic

His perfect will



_________________
andy

 2008/5/29 16:18Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic,

God clearly desires all men to be saved and commands all to repent and believe. Men's hearts prefer self will and their sinful desires and all would otherwise disobey the call and command. God, by particular election and love regenerates some of those by His always good and perfect will. Those whom He does not choose are still held accountable for their unbelief because they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him. They trample His Son's love under foot.

 2008/5/29 16:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
by andres on 2008/5/29 15:07:31
Quote:
[b]3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?[/b]
No, that is wrong!--logic
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.--


Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity.

SCRIPTURE:
.. "IS it not lawful for me to do what I will with my own? Is thine eye evil becasue I am good? So the last SHALL be first and the first sahll be last... For many be called but few are chosen.. MATT 20:15-16


Notice that HE asked, "it not lawful"?
It is not lawful for even God to condemn any of His creations with out reason.
I'm not saying that God can't do anythin HE wants that is lawful.

Stick with the context.

 2008/5/29 16:30Profile
DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

1 Timothy 6:1-5

"3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings[a] of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself."

I have to admit that I was tempted to be drawn into an argument. It is obvious to me that this thread has become about "being right" and not glorifying and directing the Church to Christ.

Anytime discussions break off the path of man's desparate and constant need to surrender to the Spirit God that faithfully points us to Christ, and seeks to confirm with other men our own muddy doctrine, it is time to step back, repent and praise God for his mercy and grace towards an imperfect and unprofitable people.

There is great arrogance in our thinking that we understand these mysteries in such clarity that our attitude one of a haughty spirit.

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

I am discouraged that we are so quickly given to these tasty arguments and that our words so quickly can be sent forth from our hearts to crush and not correct, to murder and not rebuke, to belittle and not reproof all in the name of Jesus.

So clear now is the scripture:

Matthew 7:15-23
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

 2008/5/29 16:54Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
andres wrote:
Quote:
What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?

His perfect will

Your answer is purely arbitrary.
It is the opposite of critria,
God does nothing by arbitrary means.

 2008/5/29 17:31Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
Logic,

God clearly desires all men to be saved and commands all to repent and believe. Men's hearts prefer self will and their sinful desires and all would otherwise disobey the call and command.

This is not a definite conclusion, there is no proofe that it is.

Quote:
God, by particular election and love regenerates some of those by His always good and perfect will

What are the critria, without useing an arbitrary answer, that God uses to elect?

Quote:
Those whom He does not choose are still held accountable for their unbelief because they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him.

According to your theology/doctrine, they can't belive because God didn't give them faith and they won't obey and won't give God the glory due Him because God will not "regenerat" them, therefore, you make God at fault for them being condemned.

Quote:
They trample His Son's love under foot.

Why not, if HE didn't die for them?
It won't worsen there condemnation.

 2008/5/29 17:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DesiJr wrote:
I have to admit that I was tempted to be drawn into an argument. It is obvious to me that this thread has become about "being right" and not glorifying and directing the Church to Christ.

Is there a wrong answer to my question?
All I ask for is correct answers according to the context of Scriptures.

Al I am getting are answeres that take the Scritures out of context and unreasonable responses.

If you could answer the questions posed to [b]whyme[/b] on 2008/5/29 14:30; along with the main question:
What are the criteria for God to choose the elect without giving an arbitrary reason & without partiality?

It is about "being right" because the wrong answere is usless.

If I am proven wrong, I will be persuaded.

Quote:
There is great arrogance in our thinking that we understand these mysteries


My questions are not mysteries.

Quote:
So clear now is the scripture:

Matthew 7:15-23
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves....ect...

As I said. People take Scriture out of context, as you did here.

 2008/5/29 17:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Quote:
According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)



God says He chose those that are to be regenerated before the foundation of the world.

You still haven't gave any criteria for this choosing, but only gave me a nonsense answere, "in Him"
You don't seem to understand what arbitrary means, or your just being stuborn.
Don't even bother to try again, beause it will be the same nonsenc as usual, unless you will ask questions to understand or make productive conversation.
Do not spue you strange doctrines on this thread as you usualy do

Quote:
We do reach the truth, it is line upon line and precept upon precept. How can we even see or understand the things of the Kingdom if we are not born again.

One does not need to know anything about the Kingdom of God in order to repent!

Quote:
that has been given by the Christ that is birthed in us

We are birthed in Him KNOCK IT OFF!!!!

Quote:
and in the answered prayer of Jesus Christ from the Father. One would not know what to repent of

Sure they would if you give them the law.

Quote:
or why to be baptized if it were not for the regeneration act of God and the birth of His Son in the Believer

You might as well stop replying on this thread. Your stuborn refusal to submit to sound doctrine and reason makes it rediculously futile to respond to you.

You continue to go against Scripture and say that Christ is born in man instead of the revealed Word of God telling us that we are born in Him.

You deny that it is a matter of Who or what one faith is in, instead you demand that it is a matter of whoe's faith one has.

You are almost cultic & I refuse to respond to your rheteric.

Quote:
Now you can believe line upon line and precept upon precept and as you say, "assend" unto sonship.

I did not say that men assend or ascend, I said assent, get a dictionary.

Quote:
If you don't understand the birthing, you cannot understand the new creature we have become, and that keeps us in the works of man salvation, which is the lie of Satan and has been from the beginning.

Apparently, you don't understand the "birthing"
I do not have the "works of man salvation".
I've refuted the work of the law(Rom 9:31-32 & Hebrews 4:2) & the work that is ergon(Greek) which is business, employment, that which any one is occupied.
I do not claim that man is saved because of these works.

Quote:
Why are we forgiven, not for our goodness, but for Christ's sake.

I'm not claiming that we are, all I say is that God uses criteria in this election. That criteria are the set requirements that we must humble ourselves & submit to in order escape His wrath.

Quote:
Do you Logic really read the Word of God, or do you just skim over the comments of others and bring your worldly philosophical answers to the table to prove you are right.

You can't be serious in this question.
As you can tell, I diligently study to show my self approved 2 Tim 2:15

Quote:
How can anyone be save by his own faith when God says, "we are save by Grace through Faith and that not of ourselves". Grace is of God and the Faith that saves is of God also.

As for Ephesians 2:8,9 there are two distinct clauses which you are wrongly combining.
The first half of the verse belongs together, For by grace you have been saved through faith”
dia pisteōs = through faith, functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi(are saved.)

Likewise, the second half, “and this (state of affairs) is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift,” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.”

So, All this verse is saying is that the state of affairs of salvation is by grace through faith.

However, Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The word here for "works" means "occupation" or "that wich one employes himself in"
Therefore, Faith is not a work or an occupation or even anything that any one would employ themselves in.
Faith is a responce, assent of the mind.

Quote:
How can you dispute the truth, if that is what you are searching for.

I should ask you why you refuse to accept the truth, if that is what your trying to show with all this Scriptur quoting?

I don't spin the Scriptures as you do, you do not give truth in your strange doctrines, you stubornly refuse commone sense & reason in your dividing the Word of God, furthermore, you do not exageticaly & hermuneticaly use the Scriptures corectly.

I am sure you will still use Ephesians 2:8,9 to your own advantage after I parsed it out and proved that you can not get your view establisht in that verse.
I did not come up with that.
Dr. Kirk R. MacGregor

Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
gave me this meaning to Ephesians 2:8,9.
He is fluant in Greek & Hebreww with an IQ of 175 and if He can tell you the truth of this verse, you are doomed in your own darkness.

Don't say that I am relying on the "wisdom of men" because I gave the credentials of this man, because you would be taking that concept out of context.

Quote:
God's Glory given to us by the birthing of His Son in us, who is our glory, the only Hope we have.

See what I mean, you stubornly refuse correction.
You will never stop twisting the truth that we are "birthed in HIM".

You disqulify yourself to be of any credit since you don't even get this correct.

Sure you give lip srvice to John 3, but you actual believe the opposite by you persistance to this.
You can not be "birthed in God if He is "birthed in you." You can't haveit both ways.
You deny the very basic elements of the Scriptures.

You can not have faith in Christ if it is not your own, for Christ does not require faith in Himself. Therefore, you can not have His.

You base your whole theoloy/doctrine upon a preposition(of) that is not even in the original Greek and is put in eather from a bias on the translaters part or from an archiac use of English.

With this faulty theoloy/doctrine, you deny that you have faith?

Where is your faith(Luke 8:25)? how is it that you have no faith(Mark 4:40)?
Why would Jesus rebuke His desciples if all He needed to do us give them faith [b]or[/b] if all they needed to do was use HIS?

Without faith it is impossible to please him.
I know that you do have faith, however, you have this faith with zeal without knowledge(Rom 10:1) For you being ignorant of exagesis & hermunetics of the Scriptures, and going about to establish your own doctrine, have not submitted yourself to the dotrine of the Apostles.

You have a nonsencical theology/Doctrine, and even after this you will continue to persist in it.
Your stubornness or maybe pride of some sort will keep yourself from truning from this strangeness that you attempt to teach here.

 2008/5/29 19:46Profile





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