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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DesiJr wrote:
Quote:
In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

To better understand this statement:

So would I be wrong in interpreting this to mean that God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?


True, that is why they are condemned, not because God didn't want to save them!!!

According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

The truthy of the matter is since we do & did pray in His Spirit with tears for God to save, He could not because of their unrepentence, rebelion against His spirit and denial of His evidential Word.

God is not an oger that HE would not want to save!!!

 2008/5/29 14:09Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

sorry that i'm not logic, but ephesians 2:8,9 are great verses.

2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--

2:9 not by works, lest any man should boast".

here we see that when we place our faith (trust) in God, we are saved by His grace and given the gift of salvation (Christ Himself).

this verse [b]does not say[/b] that we are saved [b]so that we could place faith in Him[/b], but that [b]our faith (trust) is the means by which He gives us His grace and the gift of salvation[/b].

and by the way.... the verse is saying that salvation is the gift of God, not faith. i know some people will say that the verse is saying that faith is the gift of God in the verse.

just some thoughts whyme,
phil

 2008/5/29 14:11Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic,

I don't intend to twist Scripture. I just noted that you made a statement that faith precedes regeration and wanted your scriptural support.

I'll be glad to provide what I perceive as support for the belief that regeneration precedes belief/faith.

1John5:1 states that everyone who believes in Christ is born of God. Before we debate sentence structure for this passage, please look at 1John4:7 that states that everyone who loves is born of God. In those verses, being born again precedes love and faith.

I think your use of Galations 4:5, at least in my Bible tranlation seems to indicate that faith precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which does not necessarily deal with regeneration. The 1John5:1 verse seems more on point.

 2008/5/29 14:13Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
andres wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.


The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.

Your logic again makes God become reliant on the creature. It seems that the creature has become the creator. For God has got to rely on us to make decisions so He can make His own decisions…

No. It make us relyant on His conditions to escape HIS wrath.

[b]2. Does God’s will depend on my will?[/b]
No.
God may still want(will) to save, even though one refuses.

[b]3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?[/b]
No, that is wrong!
God can not condemn any of His creations with out reason.
Since He sent His own Son to die for sinners(Rom 5:8), He can not be partial in whom He wants to be with for eternity.

[b]4. Is it ok that God need not give an account of His Doings?[/b]It is okay, but God will let His people know of His doings.
[b]Gen 18:17[/b] [color=990000]And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;[/color]
God did these so Abraham would intercede.
Why didn't God relent in destroying Sodam & Gamora?
He couldn't because there was no more that 1(one) righteous person in them.

However, Capernaum did not repent and it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than it will be for them (Matthew 11:23-24)
If God could have saved Capernaum, which HE wanted to, why didn't HE just make them believe?
You can not deny that Jesus wanted them to.

 2008/5/29 14:35Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

sorry that i'm not logic,

Quote:
but ephesians 2:8,9 are great verses.



As for [b]Ephesians 2:8,9[/b] there are two distinct clauses which you are wrongly combining.
The first half of the verse belongs together, [color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith[/color]”
dia pisteōs = through faith, functions as the “indirect object” clause of este sesōsmenoi(are saved.)

Likewise, the second half, “[color=990000]and this[/color] (state of affairs) [color=990000]is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift[/color],” is a contrast which only makes sense in a “not x but y” clause.
Hence the verse should be rendered, “[color=990000]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this state of affairs is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.[/color]”

So, All this verse is saying is that the state of affairs of salvation is by grace through faith.

However, [b]Eph 2:9[/b] [color=990000]Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/color]
The word here for "works" means "occupation" or "that wich one employes himself in"
Therefore, Faith is not a work or an occupation or even anything that any one would employ themselves in.
Faith is a responce, assent of the mind.

 2008/5/29 14:55Profile
DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re:

Quote:
According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.



I apologize for any miscommunication on my part in not clearly revealing to you the heart of my theology in my question that sought to clarify a statement. No where in my post on this thread did I say that "my theology" declares that God is unable to save. I feel the need to rectify this inadvertant assault against the faith towards Christ that resides with me by the gift of the Spirit of God.

This is my theology:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

In Christ, please refrain from making assumptions. Without repentance, the vanity of assumptions will lead to great transgressions against the Lord.

Psalm 19:13
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression.

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

 2008/5/29 15:02Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic,

I don't intend to twist Scripture. I just noted that you made a statement that faith precedes regeration and wanted your scriptural support.

I'll be glad to provide what I perceive as support for the belief that regeneration precedes belief/faith.

1John5:1 states that everyone who believes in Christ is born of God. Before we debate sentence structure for this passage, please look at 1John4:7 that states that everyone who loves is born of God. In those verses, being born again precedes love and faith.

Even if you don't intend to twist Scripture, your bias still conforms it to your theology.

1John 5:1 & 1John 4:7 are not meant to show the order in which thin come, it is not to create a doctrine of such, it is only making a statement of a fact that if one believes, it means that he is a son.

There is no proof either way in those verses.
However, you still have make sense in your theology.
Answer my questions:

[b]1:[/b] Faith (Rom 1:17, 4:5)
[b]2:[/b] Repentance/conversion (Acts 17:30)
[b]3:[/b] Reconciliation (Rom 5:10, Heb 2:17)
[b]4:[/b] Justification/being made righteous (Rom 3:26)
[b]5:[/b] Regeneration/Adoption (Gal 4:5)
[b]6:[/b] Sanctification (1Ths 4:4)
[b]7:[/b] Glorification.

Regeneraion does not come until after other necessary things first.

[b]1:[/b] How does one repent unless he belives(assent to the truth) first?
[b]2:[/b] How is one reconciled unless he repents first?
[b]3:[/b] How is one Justification/made righteous unless he is reconciled first?
[b]4:[/b] How is one adopted/born of God/Regenerated unless he is reconciled first?
[b]5:[/b] How is one Sanctifide/se apart unless he is God's son first?
[b]6:[/b] How is one to be glorified in the end unless he has went through all these?


& refute the logic/reasoning to this:
To all:
[b]Acts 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:[/color]

[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
This vers is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) and is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

What is it all about this problem you have for man to do that which God commands?

[b]Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!![/b]
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.
That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.

The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

 2008/5/29 15:30Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48...



this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd, ..


_________________
andy

 2008/5/29 15:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
DesiJr wrote:
Quote:
According to your theology, God is unwilling to save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

No where in my post on this thread did I say that "my theology" declares that God is unable to save.

I know, That is the reason for my post.

Do you think that God is unable to or unwilling?

Since you think God is not unable to save (very able to save), then the only other would be that HE is unwilling.
My post still satnds for you to explain.

You asked, "God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?"

This intends that you believe that God Can save anyone HE wants, which the concequence to that is this:
God is unwilling to(but HE can) save those who we prayed for in HIS Spirit with tears, and still died in there sins.

I think you got confused, please re-read that post.
I did not make any false accusations in which you did not make available.

 2008/5/29 15:45Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
andres wrote:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48...

this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd,

That verse is not meant to show the order in which things come, it is not to create a doctrine of such, it is only making a statement of a fact.

Please learn Hermeneutics & exegeses.
2Tim 2:15

What is the criteria that God uses to ordained to eternal life?

 2008/5/29 15:58Profile





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