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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Personal Election (not corporate)

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whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Often times I think we get caught up in discussing the issue of the freedom of the will as to issues pertaining to salvation. ( By the way, free will is mentioned in Philemon by Paul and in the Old Testament with respect to the "free will offering" and is meant to apply to voluntary acts of believers.)

The will is a slave to the heart or the desires of the heart. There are only two kinds of will, "self will" and "God's will" ( eg., Adam and Eve in the fall ). For sinners after the fall, the depraved heart is selfish and the will of the depraved person follows the strong wicked desires of the depraved heart. That heart is physically capable of choosing good but suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will freely choose darkness over the light.

The will of the regenerated heart freely chooses Christ and God's will because of the nature of that new heart and it is God's will that it be so. Man's will does not control the heart, it is always the other way.

 2008/5/29 8:45Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
The will is a slave to the heart or the desires of the heart. There are only two kinds of will, "self will" and "God's will" ( eg., Adam and Eve in the fall ). For sinners after the fall, the depraved heart is selfish and the will of the depraved person follows the strong wicked desires of the depraved heart. That heart is physically capable of choosing good but suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will freely choose darkness over the light.

However, the heart does not have to suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and will not alway freely choose darkness over the light.
The heart may also be persuaded.
Faith is an assent of the mind.

Faith is to admit as true; to agree, yield or concede, or rather to express an agreement of the mind to what is proven.
All will assent to the truth, but some do not consent to it.

You are thinking that faith is a consent which is an agreement to some proposal or measure (Means to an end; an act, step or a proceeding towards the accomplishment of an object by which it is to be attained.) which affects the rights or interest of the consenter.
We don't consent to a proposal of salvation, we assent to what God says as true. We admit, confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord, and also assent to the truth that God has raised him from the dead, then we will be saved(Rom 10:9)

This distinction between assent & consent is not always observed.
Quote:
The will of the regenerated heart freely chooses Christ and God's will because of the nature of that new heart and it is God's will that it be so. Man's will does not control the heart, it is always the other way.


[b]1:[/b] Faith (Rom 1:17, 4:5)
[b]2:[/b] Repentance/conversion (Acts 17:30)
[b]3:[/b] Reconciliation (Rom 5:10, Heb 2:17)
[b]4:[/b] Justification/being made righteous (Rom 3:26)
[b]5:[/b] Regeneration/Adoption (Gal 4:5)
[b]6:[/b] Sanctification (1Ths 4:4)
[b]7:[/b] Glorification.

Regeneraion does not come until after other necessary things first.

[b]1:[/b] How does one repent unless he belives(assent to the truth) first?
[b]2:[/b] How is one reconciled unless he repents first?
[b]3:[/b] How is one Justification/made righteous unless he is reconciled first?
[b]4:[/b] How is one adopted/born of God/Regenerated unless he is reconciled first?
[b]5:[/b] How is one Sanctifide/se apart unless he is God's son first?
[b]6:[/b] How is one to be glorified in the end unless he has went through all these?

 2008/5/29 12:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

To all:
[b]Acts 17:30[/b] [color=990000]And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent:[/color]

[b]Luke 17:10[/b] [color=990000]So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]
This vers is given after the Desciples ask Jesus to increase their faith(Luke 17:5)
Basicaly, Jesus told them to just do that which they are suposed to do, because they have all the faith they need.

Obedience(Luke 17:10) to a command(Acts 17:30) and is not meritable!!!
To believe the truth is not meritable!!!
To act upon the truth not meritable!!!

What is it all about this problem you have for man to do that which God commands?

[b]Salvation is not a privilege, it is a mandate!!![/b]
No one is condemned for not being privileged, however, all are condemned for not fulfilling the mandate.

If salvation was a privilege, then it means that some men are not supposed to obey the command for all men everywhere to repent; that would make null & void Acts 17:30.
That verse would not command all men everywhere, but only those who are first moved to do so.

The Scripture would say, "...but now commands only those who are moved to repent to do so."

 2008/5/29 12:14Profile
DesiJr
Member



Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113


 Re: Personal Election (not corporate)

Quote:
In other words, God must have known whom he could save.



To better understand this statement:

So would I be wrong in interpreting this to mean that God must have known who He can't save. Not because of man's inability to choose God, but because the inability for the Holy Spirit to reach a man's heart?

www.HeGaveMeLife.com

 2008/5/29 12:18Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

 2008/5/29 12:24Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
zealouscello wrote:
My friend,
You can't rape the willing. God makes his elect willing by regenerating them, making them see their sin and giving them faith to believe on Christ.

According to your theology/doctrin, one is not willing untill he is raped.

 2008/5/29 13:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
intrcssr83 wrote:
Quote:
by Logic on 2008/5/29 2:54:38

Carried to its end, Calvin himself as well as the Reformants of the present day, and also those who claim Calvin as Biblicists today who are most ignorant of classic or historic Calvinism portrays God as a sadistic tyrant either knowingly or unknowingly.

Whereas those who are not ignorant of his horrid theology and consequently deny and refute it, are those who exalt God as God over all His works by man willingly humbling himself to God instead of being "raped of the soul" (R.C. Sproul) and forced to love God when he didn't want to in the first place.

[url=http://youtube.com/watch?v=bysSDFI8e50]Mark Driscoll responds to the blasphemy of the "God of Predestination is a Rapist" lie.[/url]

Mark Driscoll misses the wjole point. It isn't like "a father with a son who is going to die", otherwise, the father would rescue all who HE created.
It is not as it were as father with a son who is going to die, because God does not obtrude or impose Himself upon His creation.
You theory of "regeneration" is not the same as the Scriptures, for the truth of regeneration is becoming a son.
According to theory of "regeneration", you have God making one a son before one is assented to the truth of HIM & still not repented or reconciled with HIM; The one one who is made a son is not yet made righteous by faith(assent to the truth)

 2008/5/29 13:07Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Logic wrote..
“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge that they will submit to the truth and ask for the mercy that is offered. In other words, God must have known whom he could save.”


Your logic again makes God become reliant on the creature.. it seems that the creature has become the creator.. For God has got to rely on us to make decisions so He can make His own decisions…

1. Logic, does God will need to rely on anything?
2. Does God’s will depend on my will?
3. IS it right that God can do what he will with is own?
4. Is it ok that God need not give an account of His Doings?

Love andy


_________________
andy

 2008/5/29 13:43Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Logic,

Please provide Scripture that supports your notion that saving faith precedes regeneration.

It is dificult to prove anything by Scripture to those who insist on tristing it to their theology.
If I do give scripture, I am sure you will come back with your own slant on in.
Therefore I use the definition of the meaning of regeneration and aply that to real life, commone sence and logic, which the Scriptures agree to.

Regeneration is becoming a son of God.

I've already gave common sence, logical reasoning to [b]intrcssr83[/b] @12:07pm & b]to all[/b] @11:14, & I aked you retroical questions @11:06 why it must and that it can not procede faith.

If you can answer my "retorical questions(I guess they shouldn't be retorical) & refute the common sence that I posted [b]to all[/b] @11:14 & the logical reasoning that I gave to intrcssr83, along with Sctipture to prove that faith does not precedes regeneration, I will be persuaded.
The burden of proof is upon you since you have an alien definition of regeneration,
and have not yet proved your theory even by commone sence & logic.

 2008/5/29 14:05Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

Logic wrote..
“The reason for electing certain men and not others must be based upon the foreknowledge.

The bible never says this, that we are saved by forseen faith, it says we are saved by faith by the grace of God. you have it backwards its not that god saw man's faith in the future so God elected him , but as the scripture says "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13.48... this is what scriptures says, do you see the order, ordained 1st, faith 2nd, is that what this scripture says or am i wrong and why?
love andy


_________________
andy

 2008/5/29 14:08Profile





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