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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"He is, only, Lord, to those who obey Him."

Then obey Him. You are not justified by the works of the Law. This includes the seventh day Sabbath, He is now our Sabbath Rest, and justification.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

For we now have the mind of Christ. 1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/4/19 22:36Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2783
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

sscr01,

I would also encourage you to read the following testimony of Greg Taylor, a former Adventist pastor, please prayerfully consider what he has to say. You will notice at the end of the testimony he takes a good look at most of the Scriptures you have quoted.

[url=http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Testimonies/Taylor/tabid/66/Default.aspx]Greg Taylor testimony[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/4/19 22:48Profile









 Re: Hebrews 4:10

For any who might be interested the following link is to an article on The Believers Sabbath: http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index076.htm

 2008/4/19 22:48









 Re:

[u][b]Psalm 2[/b][/u]

[b]Why do the nations conspire,
and the peoples plot in vain?

The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against YHVH and his anointed, saying,
[u]"Let us burst their bonds asunder,
and cast their cords from us."[/u]

He who sits in the heavens laughs;
YHVH has them in derision.

Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
and terrify them in his fury, saying,

"I have set my king
on Zion, my holy hill."

I will tell of the decree of YHVH:
He said to me, "You are my son,
today I have begotten you.

Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.

You shall break them with a rod of iron,
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.

Serve YHVH with fear,
with trembling
kiss his feet,

lest he be angry, and you perish in the way;
for his wrath is quickly kindled.

Blessed are all who take refuge in him.[/b]
____________________

Stephen

 2008/4/20 6:35
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Law

Quote:
I would also encourage you to read the following testimony of Greg Taylor, a former Adventist pastor, please prayerfully consider what he has to say. You will notice at the end of the testimony he takes a good look at most of the Scriptures you have quoted.



[url=http://www.exadventist.com/Home/Testimonies/Taylor/tabid/66/Default.aspx]Greg Taylor testimony[/url]

Always more ... endearing hearing it from someone who has a great deal of first hand experience.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/20 10:57Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Paragraphing from the below link, I would like to bring a most unfortunate comment to the forefront.

If Israel had accepted Jesus as Messiah at His first appearing, we would have no Cross, no forgiveness of sin based upon the shed Blood of Christ, No Church, no longer Jew, no longer Gentile but one New Man, breaking down that wall that was between, being the Body of Christ.

The Lamb of God from the foundation of the world is Christ crucified.

Did the Cross negate the promises to Israel...God forbid. The Risen Christ in all His Glory will fulfill these future events and promises.


Quoting from article:

Now that the message of the Bible on the Sabbath had been studied and the teaching clear to my mind, there were some sticking points that seemed to contradict this consistent theme. One example was the statement that in the new earth we will be keeping Sabbath. So I went to that passage to read it for myself and found out a few interesting things. One, it says that the celebrations will be "from one NEW MOON to another and from one Sabbath to another." (Isa. 66:22-23) Does this mean that New Moon festivals should be kept today? Are they still binding? Then I noticed the next couple of verses talk about the inhabitants walking about and encountering the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against the Lord. That didn't sound like the new earth. Then, in reading the larger context of the same vision, it says "for the child will die one hundred years old." (Isa. 65:20) What a strange picture of heaven! The reason it sounds so strange is because the "New Heavens and New Earth" that Isaiah is talking about is not the New Earth of Revelation where "there will be no more death or sorrow or crying." Instead, it is describing Isaiah's picture of what the earth would be like if Israel had accepted the Messiah and become the center attraction of the world. People would have come to Israel to see what their God had done. They would have joined Israel in worship and God's blessings would have made this "New Jerusalem" the center of the world. This prediction was one of those prophecies that was conditional on the acceptance of the Messiah. Since Israel rejected the Messiah, it was not fulfilled.



This misunderstanding is most unfortunate in our Churches today.


Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/20 13:01Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi brothers and sisters,

Our dear brother Crsschk posted a message in regard the sabbath and Sdas.

Please allow me comment on a couple of things He said.

Quote:"""No Sabbatarian, therefore, keeps "the law," "the law of God," or "the law of the Lord"; for if he did he would offer sacrifices, be circumcised, and live exactly like the Jews.""""

We Sabbatarians keep the whole of the Ten Comandments, but

Why we do not offer Animal sacrifices anymore?

Daniel 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Daniel told us that animal sacrifices would cease....

but we are offering sacrifices to God Daily.

Hebrews 13:15-16 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


We all know that the animal sacrifices offered before Christ pointed to Him, the Holy Lamb of God that would take away our sins.

The whole of the book of Hebrews talks about why we do not need to offer animal sacrifices anymore.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

+++++++++++++

About Circumcision, well I will just quote what Paul said.


1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


Here we have Paul clearly saying that what really matters is to keep God's commandments, if what you said is right dear brother Paul would have said that Circumcision and the commandments of God are nothing.....

======

Question, Why Paul was never persecuted for breaking the Sabbath?

How come there is nothing in the bible saying that Someone at least hinted that Paul broke the Sabbath law, isn't that strange?

=======

Quote: """" They keep the Sabbath because the law says so and thereby become "debtors to do the whole law""""

So, what is the solution to this problem?

for Either you keep the whole law or you get rid of the whole thing, Which one is it?

If I understand you, either you keep the whole law, with the sacrifices, circumcision and the moral law, or you get rid of the whole thing, but then you come accros what jesus said.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

=============

Quote:""""To be consistent, the sabbath breakers are to be stoned to death. If the keeping of the sabbath is still present and enforceable so is it's penalty. Why is the former kept and the latter left undone? Is there not an obligation and a duty?) (This is noted later on that the Adventist would say that the penalty is done away with at the cross, but that also proves to be problematic)""""


James addressed this issue of the ministration of Death, that you mentioned before.

when we talk about the commandments.

Paul said this.

Romans 13:9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Paul just mentioned half of the ten commandments and He summed up these commandments as in

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

but here james said.


James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.


James clearly said that those who observe these commandments, verse 12, will be judged by the law of Liberty.

If we break the law we will not be punished by death anymore because we are now under grace, we can choose to obey or not to obey but one day we will be judged by this law. The law of liberty....

========

In your last paragraph I would like to just make one comment.

quote:""""" But if a Christian loves God he will be baptized (Acts 2:38) take the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11:24) wash the saints' feet (John 13:1 16; 1 Tim. 5:10); attend meetings (Heb. 10:25); and observe the law of Christ, which is much different from the law the Jews observed.""""

You were very good here, but I must disagree with your last statement.

I do not believe that Jesus has a different law apart from His Father's law.

This is God's law.

Exodus 34:28 And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

The Ten commandments is described here as the words of the Covenant.

Remember there is an old and a new Covenant, but the words never changed....

Deuteronomy 9:10 "Then the LORD delivered to me two tablets of stone written with the finger of God,

Nowhere in the bible Jesus invalidated any of God's commandments for He is One with God, He in fact magnified some commandments, as an example we can commit adultery in the heart but the principle remains, it is still adultery.

He also gave commandments, but nothing that would contradict any of the other commandments.

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.



Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Here clearly it says those who keeps God's commandments...

You will say what are God's commandments ?

Nehemiah clears it all up for us.

Nehemiah 10:29 these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes:


Note here that Nehemiah talks about three things.

Commandments,
Ordinances,
Statutes,

and Paul said that Jesus nailed to the Cross the Handwriting with ordinances.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


In case you mention

Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,


this is what God had to say about these.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons, Her Sabbaths -- All her appointed feasts.


Isaiah 1:13-14 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies -- I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. 14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates;


The sabbath Seventh Day, was given before sin had even entered in the world.


Lamentations 2:6 The LORD has caused The appointed feasts and Sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion.

And yet we know that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.
==========

I am not trying to convicen anybody of anything, I just thought that I should post a response in defence of the reply that our dear brother posted here.


I will close with a last bible text....

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

and remember if you are in doubt as to what are God's commandments here is what Nehemiah said again.


Nehemiah 10:29 these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God's Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes:


God bless us all and that the Holy Spirit may open our eyes to the truths of God's words.



 2008/4/20 18:35Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

The Sabbath days were included in the ceremonial law, which, was fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus. This is not the same as the seventh day Sabbath, included in the Ten Commandment Covenant.

Our Creator sanctified and blessed the seventh day Sabbath at Creation - before the law was given. Later, He made it part of His Covenant.

There was, only, one Covenant in The Ark - The Ten Commandments.

Even in heaven, the Lord makes quite a statement about His Covenant: "And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple, The Ark of His Testament: and there were LIGHTNINGS, and VOICES, and THUNDERINGS, and AN EARTHQUAKE, and GREAT HAIL." Rev 11:19.

When Moses disobeyed the Lord and struck the rock, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12. When the children of Israel disobeyed the Lord, they were not able to enter the Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Jesus did not do many works in Nazareth, because of their unbelief. Mt 13:58. Unbelief comes out of an evil heart. Heb 3:12.

"...he that believeth not God, hath made Him a liar..." 1 John 5:10.

Disobedience=unbelief.

"DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YEA,WE ESTABLISH THE LAW." Rom 3:31.

"But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH." Rom 16:26.

"BY FAITH ABRAHAM...OBEYED." Heb 11:8.

"Was not Abraham our father (of the faithful) JUSTIFIED BY WORKS when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? SEEST THOU HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" Ja 2:21,22.

God told Abraham to offer Isaac, and Abraham obeyed Him.

Faith=obedience.

"Abd being made perfect, HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM." Heb 5:9.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

Covenants have conditions.

 2008/4/20 19:24Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sabbath

Hi jayyou,

Just a clarification, those are primarily quotes of the linked article (book) not mine own.

Quote:
We Sabbatarians keep the whole of the Ten Comandments, but ...



Are you sure brother? But moreover do you need to is the larger question. I do not mean the morally binding matters that are still exemplified and spoken elsewhere but that they were given to Israel as a nation for very specific reasons. Much of this is extrapolated throughout that particular book linked.

[i] "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of' the midst of the fire, . . . saying, I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.... Keep the Sabbath Day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh! day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man servant, nor thy maid servant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; . . . And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath." "These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly.... And he wrote them in two tables of stone" (Deut. 5:2 15, 22).

This is the Sabbath commandment as enjoined in the decalog. Saturday keepers contend that this command is obligatory upon all nations and even upon angels in heaven; but a careful reading of the foregoing will show that it was given only to the Jews, to the children of Israel. It was but a Jewish institution. This covenant enjoining the seventh day Sabbath Moses declares was not made with their fathers (the patriarchs), nor with Gentiles, nor with angels in heaven, "but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."

It was made with the children of Israel only. It applied only to them. "I am the Lord thy God which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house [20] of bondage." [/i]

You only touched on one aspect there regarding animal sacrifices. But you yourself are not an Israelite are you? Nor were you brought out of Egypt, out of that bondage. Much more could be said.

Quote:
About Circumcision, well I will just quote what Paul said.


1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


Here we have Paul clearly saying that what really matters is to keep God's commandments, if what you said is right dear brother Paul would have said that Circumcision and the commandments of God are nothing.....



This is confusing the matter. If circumcision was a commandment still in force then why would he contradict himself by saying that it is "nothing" and at the same time state that "keeping the commandments of God is what matters". ?

To go through all these one by one could be tedious. What keeps coming back is certainly the book of Hebrews.

[i]Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.[/i]

[i]Heb 7:18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.[/i]

Hate to even prooftext in this way since there is so much context to take into consideration. But it is evident that there is a change in the 'law', a change in the covenant. That which pertained specifically to Israel and all that Paul goes to great lengths to explain.

Quote:
and Paul said that Jesus nailed to the Cross the Handwriting with ordinances.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


In case you mention

Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,


this is what God had to say about these.

Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons, Her Sabbaths -- All her appointed feasts.



Whoa there brother. That is well out of context jumping backward to Hosea and even if you were to use this as contemporary ... doesn't it negate keeping of the sabbath then?

Quote:

Isaiah 1:13-14 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies -- I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. 14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates;



And this as well? The context of what these passages are spoken in is very important. It seems very strange that you would use these to support sabbath keeping today at any rate.


Quote:
The sabbath Seventh Day, was given before sin had even entered in the world.


Lamentations 2:6 The LORD has caused The appointed feasts and Sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion.

And yet we know that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.



A long excerpt follows, but give the whole of this book a read brother. Much of what you have here is confusing, you seem to be disproving the case for sabbath keeping with what you bring forth;

[i]"The law having a shadow of good things to come" (Heb. 10:1). The whole law system was but a shadow, containing types and figures of the plan of perfect redemption. Its Passover, atonements, sacrifices, offerings, tabernacle, temple, altars, blood, priests, circumcision, and sabbaths, all belonged to the law of shadows going before.

Among the promises of coming redemption was that of Shiloh—the rest giver (Gen. 49:10). "And his rest shall be glorious" (Isa. 11:10). In fulfillment, Jesus came, [11] saying, "Come unto me . . . and I will give you rest . . . And ye shall find rest unto your souls" (Matt. 11:28; 29). In the law of shadows there must be a type of this sweet and tranquil rest found in redeeming grace. Hence God set apart one day in seven, the seventh, as a "sabbath of rest."

"Sabbath" means "rest." Rest is the sole idea of the term. The law said, "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest" (Exod. 31:15). This is made still clearer in the Septuagint, where it is rendered, "But the seventh day is the Sabbath, a holy rest to the Lord." That sabbath, or rest, was "a shadow of things to come." It reached its fulfilment in Christ, in whom our souls have found an everlasting rest (see Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 4:1-11).

The Sabbath, then, was instituted by God, among the types and shadows of his great redemption. It pointed back to the creation, and forward to Christ, just as the Passover pointed back to Israel's exodus from Egyptian bondage and forward to "Christ our Passover, sacrificed for us." Whether, therefore, the Sabbath was instituted before Moses or not, it belonged to the law of types and shadows. Sacrifices began in the family of Adam, circumcision began with Abraham, yet both were nailed to the cross with all the ordinances of Moses.

But let us investigate, and find just when and where the Sabbath was first enjoined upon man. Saturday keepers lay no small stress upon a supposed pre Mosaic Sabbath. In fact, it is one of their main pillars. Back there in the dim past the events of an age were covered by a few lines in the Bible. Yet "the main reliance of Sabbatarians is upon arguments drawn from those remote times of darkness, while in the New Testament they find little to support their theories, but much to explain away.''

The scholarship of the world is somewhat divided on the subject of a pre Mosaic Sabbath. Much has been written on both sides of the question. In either case it has little bearing on present observance. But since our Sabbatarian friends rely greatly upon a belief in Sabbath observance from Eden, I desire to set before the [12] reader what I sincerely believe to be the truth of the matter. After reading much on both sides of the controversy, I have been led into the settled conviction that the argument for Sabbath observance from Eden down through the Patriarchal age rests upon a very sandy foundation. I shall submit the following proofs against it:

There is not one command in the book of Genesis to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. In the language of Canright, "There is no statement that any of the patriarchs kept the Sabbath or knew anything about it. Sabbatarians say the record is so brief that it was omitted. Their proof, then, is what was left out!"

The first mention of the Sabbath as a rest day enjoined upon man that is recorded in the Bible is found in Exod. 16:23-30. This was twenty five hundred years after the creation of man. It was a new command to the Jews. On Friday, Moses said to the people, "Tomorrow is a solemn rest, a holy Sabbath unto the Lord" (verse 23, Revised Version). On Saturday, he said, "Today is a Sabbath unto the Lord" (verse 25). "So the people rested on the seventh day" (verse 30). "And the people keep Sabbath on the seventh day" (LXX). This language, with its context, seems to prove that the children of Israel there and then began resting on the seventh day; that the keeping of the Sabbath was a new thing to them. Their deliverance from Egypt marked a new era in their history. At this time the Lord gave them a new year and a new beginning of months. (See Exod. 12:2.) So, also, he for the first time gave them the Sabbath (Exodus 16). Many scriptures teach this fact, a few of which are given below.

"Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them)' (Ezek. 20:10, 12). This text is conclusive. It simply states that God gave them the Sabbath when he brought them out of Egypt. "I gave them my sabbaths" implies the act of committing it to them, and proves that they did not have it before. It was a new thing to them, and only for them. The place where God gave Israel the Sabbath was: ``the wilderness." It was given as a sign [13] between himself and that nation. So positively teaches the text quoted.

"And remember that thou west a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm: THEREFORE the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the Sabbath Day" (Deut. 5:15). God commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath as a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt. Then, they never kept it until the reason existed for keeping it. Thus, it was first enjoined upon them in the wilderness.

The covenant enjoining the seventh day was not made before Moses. "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day" (Deut. 5:2, 3). "Then follows a recital of the Ten Commandments, the covenant referred to. So if we are to credit the inspired statement of Moses, we must admit that the law embodying the seventh day Sabbath had never been given to the ancestors of the Jewish nation. Nay, "The Lord made not this covenant with out fathers but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day."

We affirm that every assumption that the Sabbath had been previously given is a direct contradiction of these texts.

"Thou camest down also upon Mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven . . . and makest known unto them thy holy Sabbath" (Neh. 9:13, 14). "Though the Sabbath had been introduced a short time before when the manna first fell, it is but natural that Nehemiah should speak of it with the rest of the law, as given on Sinai, by the audible voice of God, . . . and made a statute in Israel. If, then, we credit the testimony of Nehemiah, we trace the origin of that Sabbath to Moses in the wilderness. There is where God came down and gave that law."

I shall now quote from The Sabbath and also from Canright. "Smith and Barnum's Dictionary of the Bible says, 'In Exod. 16:23 29 we find the first incontrovertible institution of the day, as one given to, and to be kept by, the children of Israel. Shortly afterward it was re enacted in the fourth commandment.'[14][/i]

Continued here;
[url=http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/sabbframeset.html]The Sabbath; When Originated And When First Enjoined Upon Man [/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/20 19:52Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother crsschk,

Thank you for you reply.

Please allow me to comment again on your last post.


Quote:"""they were given to Israel as a nation for very specific reasons. """""

Yes you are right brother These laws were given to Israel but there is one problem with this.
======
So were the Covenants that you afirm to be part of, namely New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -

======

Now everybody says they are in the new covenant but when it comes to the words of the covenant.

Exodus 34:28 And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Well that is not for me, they are for the Jew.

Correct me if I am wrong but is there a covenant that God gave to us Gentiles or are we partakers of the covenat that was given to Israel and the House of Judah?


and Just to make things even more interesting Paul pretty much said that it is through the righteous requirements of the law that we become an inwardly Jew. what he calls circumcision of the heart, and as he said, if I am an inwardly jew and have circumcision of the heart, Aren't I partaker of the covenants given to Israel?


Romans 2:26-29 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the

righteous requirements of the law,


will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

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I would like to hear your explanation for Romans 2.

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Circumcision.

Quote:"""" If circumcision was a commandment still in force then why would he contradict himself by saying that it is "nothing""""

Dear brother Paul is saying that Circumcision of the flesh is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matter.

why would Paul say that?

because in Romans He shows us how to be circumcised in the Heart, which was something that God wanted from Israel in the first Place.

This is what Paul said.

Romans 2:26-27 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?


and remember what was said to Israel.

Deuteronomy 10:16 "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

Again, Paul was saying the the cirucumcision of the flesh is nothing but keeping the commandments of God is what is important, by keeping the righteous requirements of the law, you Get to become and inwardly jew and have your heart circumcised.

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Sabbaths

quote: """Whoa there brother. That is well out of context jumping backward to Hosea and even if you were to use this as contemporary ... doesn't it negate keeping of the sabbath then?"""""

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Why is it out of context?

It is not out of context at all, I posted it that way to show you that the Sabbaths Paul is talking about in Colossians is the appointed feasts.

and Hosea makes a very clearly especified that the feasts days, new moons and sabbaths would cease, and he goes on saying this, All her appointed feasts.

The Seventh Day Sabbath, was given by God at the end of creation, everything was perfect, no sin, no need for a saviour to rescue us from sin. it was not a shadow of things to come. it was a day that God sanctified and he made it holy, some people say that it is just a day like any other, and in fact it is not.

God sanctified it and we are told not to call common something that God sanctified.

This does not negate the keeping of the sabbath at all, it just points that the SAbbaths, that we are not to be judged for if we don't keep them are the Feasts sabbaths, and not the seventh day Sabbath.

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Question:

I have explained to you how I as a gentile am partaker of the covenant that was given to israel, please explain to me how do you include yourself in a covenant that was given to Israel and the house of Judah but then you exclude yourself from the words of the covenant, namely, Ten commandments.

for this is what God said:

Hebrews 8:8 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --


Thank you brother for spending the time to discuss this, I believe that we can agree in disagree. I would be very interested in learning more about how you see things....


may the peace of our Lord and Saviour rests upon us all.....

Jayme

 2008/4/21 6:37Profile





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