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rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re:

Reply

I do not summit to your judgement , what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common..
Jesus is our Sabbath.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2008/4/17 18:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""So, because we have grace, it is o.k. to worship other gods, take His name in vain, profane His hold day, dishonor our parents, murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness and covet?""

Grace never allows this kind of rhetorical defaming of God's Grace. For you are saved by God's Grace through Faith. His Faith His Grace, do you think that God will allow His word to return void? God forbid, that is not the God of the Bible.

Quote: He is, only, Lord, to those that obey His Word.

He is only Lord to those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God has put the witness in ourselves.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

This is the witness and record of God:

1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Do you not see the turmoil that the seventh day Sabbath brings, which God took away in Christ Jesus our Sabbath.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/4/17 20:08Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother Phillip,

Please allow me to ask you a few questions.

Please show me in scriptures How was the transition from the Day(24 hours period, seventh share of the week) into the Person of Jesus Christ.

and Please could you rewrite the fourth commandment according to your understanding.
How is the fourth commandment written for you?

+++++++++

The other question is:

Isaiah 56:1-2 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."

Please note the first word in verse 2.

I will not post the whole chapter but you can have a look if you want.

My question is, based on the first word in verse 2.

Blessed


Is this blessing still available to us, or please show in the bible where it proves to all of us without a shadow of a doubt that this promise was nullified.

is there anywhere in the bible that nullifies all the blessings from this whole chapter?


In christ....

Jayme


 2008/4/19 9:04Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sabbath

[i] "After keeping the seventh day and extensively advocating it for over a quarter of a century, I became satisfied that it was an error, and that the blessing of God did not go with the keeping of it. Like thousands of others, when I embraced the seventh day Sabbath I thought that the argument was all on one side, so plain that one hour's reading ought to settle it, so clear that no man could reject the Sabbath and be honest. The only marvel to me was that everybody did not see and embrace it.

"But after keeping it twenty eight years; after having persuaded more than a thousand others to keep it; after having read my Bible through, verse by verse, more than twenty times; after having scrutinized, to the very best of my ability every text, line, and word in the Bible having the remotest bearing upon the Sabbath question; after having looked up all these, both in the original and in many translations; after having searched in lexicons, concordances, commentaries, and dictionaries; after having read armfuls of books on both sides of the question; after having read every line in all the early church Fathers upon [4] this point, and having written several works in favor of the seventh day, which were satisfactory to my brethren; after having debated the question for more than a dozen times; after seeing the fruits of keeping it, and weighing all the evidence in the fear of God, I am fully settled in my own mind and convinced that the evidence is against the keeping of the seventh day."[/i] —Seventh day Adventism Renounced, pages 185, 186.

[url=http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/sabbframeset.html]The Sabbath and the Lord's Day[/url]


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Mike Balog

 2008/4/19 9:22Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Dear brethren,

I have found that as soon as I make a conscious resolution to [i]keep[/i] any facet of "Christian" duty in the flesh (even if my purpose for keeping the duty is wrought in the Spirit according to my perception), I am immediately led into bondage. It doesn't matter what the chore is. It has taken the Lord years and years to show me; I have gone through seas of failure and pain and high drama in the flesh to finally begin to grasp the priceless revelation of [i]Christ in me[/i]. Precious brethren, God is concerned with Christ Jesus in me, His life and His righteousness, the working out of [i]His[/i] life through me - which is walking in the Spirit. There is a blessed rest from all physical ordinances for those who walk in the Spirit - under the law of the Spirit of grace. If our eyes are not open to this effectual working of our lives being hidden with Christ in God, we shall never enter into rest and forever be engaged in strivings and stuggles and confusions and debates of the law such as sabbaths and tithes and meats and drink...

God would set us free from all this by a new law - the law of the Spirit of grace which releases us from the law of sin and death. If we could just see that [i]we are dead[/i]. I repeat it again: [i]we are dead[/i]. And again: [i]we are dead![/i] And if we are dead, and reckon ourselves so, we know also that we are raised with Christ, quickened by the same Spirit of God that raised Him and now dwells in us, imparting a Sonship that translates from this world of darkness and and sin and law of ordinances into the Kingdom of Light, a divine revelation that must be grasped if we are to experience the glorious resurrection life God intends for us in Christ.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/4/19 9:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Jay you wrote:

"""is there anywhere in the bible that nullifies all the blessings from this whole chapter?"""Isaiah 56:

Not nullify but confirm it in Christ.

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:


What is the purpose of Keeping the Commandments? Law;

Is it not for righteousness sake and sanctification unto our God and Father.

If we keep all the commandments all the time and fail in none, then we are righteous before God. But there is still no life in the commandments, there is only life in Chrsit.

This is the righteousness God demands, keep my commandments and you will live.

Do you know how many times in the Bible it says to keep His commandments? It is over 150 times.

Say to your self "keep His commandments" 150 times, what does that do to you. It only confirms that we cannot keep them, for God is a Holy God and we are not.

The only place we are righteous and sanctified and justified in wisdom and redemption is in Christ, That is what God made Him to be to those that believe. So if I put the keeping of the commandments above What God Has Done In Christ, what am I doing? I am telling God, that was not good enough and I will keep your commandments and make myself holy with the help of Jesus Christ.
That is not what God intended, He made Christ to be all in all for and in us. Why is it so hard to see that no man can keep the commandments? If he could then The Father Giving His Son on the Cross is a worthless gesture and it is only a show of who God is and wants us to be. It is not a complete change in nature and a new life in Christ Jesus, it is only a picture of what we can make ourselves to be by our own doing, works, which we already know cannot please God.

Keeping the seventh day Sabbath is a perfect picture of those works to make us pleasing to God, which we already know, they are not pleasing to Him. There is only One that is pleasing to Him, that is His Only Begotten Son that obeyed Him in all the Law and Commandments and Love and total sacrifice of Himself unto His Father, which God demands of every son.

We cannot do it, it has been done for us, in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I keep the Sabbath, but not as a day, but as a Love offering to the Father for what He has done by His Son in me. He is my Sabbath and I keep Him at the front of all that I am, He is my all, which includes all the commandments and in Him I keep them by His power not mine. I still cannot make myself pleasing to God, no matter how hard I try, it cannot be done in self, it can only be done by and through the Christ that is now my life, by His Faith, by His wisdom, by His righteousness, by His sanctification, by His redemption, by His all given for us that we might be the son's of God in Him. Is this not the two first commandments that fulfill all the Law which is now in Christ Jesus that is in us.

Righteousness and Sanctification is now in Christ by the Holy Spirit, by the Christ that God has made in us for His purpose not ours.

Through the Holy Ghost. To understand this, it is necessary to call to mind the promise that Jesus made before his death, that after His departure, the Holy Ghost would descend to be a guide to his apostles. See Joh 16:7-11,. It was to be his office to carry forward the work of redemption in applying it to the hearts of men. Whatever was done, therefore, after the atonement and resurrection of Jesus, after he had finished his great work, was to be regarded as under the peculiar influence and direction of the Holy Ghost. This includes the commandments which are now by the life of Jesus Christ in us, we are to fulfill all of them, Even the instructions of Jesus, his commission to the apostles, etc., were to be regarded as coming within the department of the sacred life of the Spirit of Christ born again in us, given to the Holy Spirit, within the province of His peculiar work. The instructions were given by Divine authority, by infallible guidance, and as a part of the work which the Holy Spirit designed. Under that Spirit the apostles were to go forth; by His aid they were to convert the world, to organize The Body of Christ, the church, to establish its order and its doctrines. And hence the entire work was declared to be by His direction. Though in His larger and more mighty influences, the Spirit did not descend until the day of Pentecost, Lu 24:49; comp. Ac 2:1-47 yet in some measure His influence was imparted to them before the ascension of Christ, Joh 20:22.

Now in all this are we to keep the commandments by our works or by His Work done at the Cross and designated to the Holy Spirit to work in us that all might be accomplished in Christ. Who is our life, all the commandments, including the seventh day Sabbath and all that pertains to life and Godliness, We know this because we now keep His commandments, not by our power, but by His.

1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

We keep His commandments because of Him that is in us, not because it is our responsibility to keep them, for we cannot. That is why He is now our Sabbath and all that we are in keeping His commandments, by His Power and By the Holy Spirit.

How do we walk in His commandments? 2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. Again the first two commandments which hang all the law.

His commandments are in Him, and we are in Him and by Him that is in us we walk in His commandments.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

By His might, not by mine.

Confirmed, In Christ my keeper of all the commandments making me a keeper of them also:

Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2008/4/19 16:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PaulWest wrote:
Dear brethren,

I have found that as soon as I make a conscious resolution to [i]keep[/i] any facet of "Christian" duty in the flesh (even if my purpose for keeping the duty is wrought in the Spirit according to my perception), I am immediately led into bondage. It doesn't matter what the chore is. It has taken the Lord years and years to show me; I have gone through seas of failure and pain and high drama in the flesh to finally begin to grasp the priceless revelation of [i]Christ in me[/i]. Precious brethren, God is concerned with Christ Jesus in me, His life and His righteousness, the working out of [i]His[/i] life through me - which is walking in the Spirit. There is a blessed rest from all physical ordinances for those who walk in the Spirit - under the law of the Spirit of grace. If our eyes are not open to this effectual working of our lives being hidden with Christ in God, we shall never enter into rest and forever be engaged in strivings and stuggles and confusions and debates of the law such as sabbaths and tithes and meats and drink...

God would set us free from all this by a new law - the law of the Spirit of grace which releases us from the law of sin and death. If we could just see that [i]we are dead[/i]. I repeat it again: [i]we are dead[/i]. And again: [i]we are dead![/i] And if we are dead, and reckon ourselves so, we know also that we are raised with Christ, quickened by the same Spirit of God that raised Him and now dwells in us, imparting a Sonship that translates from this world of darkness and and sin and law of ordinances into the Kingdom of Light, a divine revelation that must be grasped if we are to experience the glorious resurrection life God intends for us in Christ.




Here's a good article I found on Sermon Index by Watchman Nee on "Reckoning". It reminds me exactly of what you are speaking of here. :-)



".....For years after my conversion I had been taught to reckon. I reckoned from 1920 until 1927. The more I reckoned that I was dead to sin, the more alive I clearly was. I simply could not believe myself dead and I could not produce the death. Whenever I sought help from others I was told to read Romans 6:11, and the more I read Romans 6:11 and tried to reckon, the further away death was: I could not get at it. I fully appreciated the teaching that I must reckon, but I could not make out why nothing resulted from it. I have to confess that for months I was troubled. I said to the Lord, 'If this is not clear, if I cannot be brought to see this which is so very fundamental, I will cease to do anything. I will not preach any more; I will not go out to serve Thee any more; I want first of all to get thoroughly clear here.' For months I was seeking, and at times I fasted, but nothing came through.

I remember one morning -- that morning was a real morning and one I can never forget -- I was upstairs sitting at my desk reading the Word and praying, and I said, 'Lord, open my eyes!' And then in a flash I saw it. I saw my oneness with Christ. I saw that I was in Him, and that when He died I died. I saw that the question of my death was a matter of the past and not of the future, and that I was just as truly dead as He was because I was in Him when He died. The whole thing had dawned upon me. I was carried away with such joy at this great discovery that I jumped from my chair and cried, 'Praise the Lord, I am dead!' I ran downstairs and met one of the brothers helping in the kitchen and I laid hold of him. 'Brother', I said, 'do you know that I have died?' I must admit he looked puzzled. 'What do you mean?' he said, so I went on: 'Do you not know that Christ has died? Do you not know that I died with Him? Do you not know that my death is no less truly a fact than His?' Oh it was so real to me! I longed to go through the streets of Shanghai shouting the news of my discovery. From that day to this I have never for one moment doubted the finality of that word: "I have been crucified with Christ".

I do not mean to say that we need not work that out. Yes, there is an outworking of the death which we are going to see presently, but this, first of all, is the basis of it. I have been crucified: it has been done.

What, then, is the secret of reckoning? To put it in one word, it is revelation. We need revelation from God Himself (Matt. 16:17; Eph. 1:17,18). We need to have our eyes opened to the fact of our union with Christ, and that is something more than knowing it as a doctrine. Such revelation is no vague, indefinite thing. Most of us can remember the day when we saw clearly that Christ died for us, and we ought to be equally clear as to the time when we saw that we died with Christ. It should be nothing hazy, but very definite, for it is with this as basis that we shall go on. It is not that I reckon myself to be dead, and therefore I will be dead. It is that, because I am dead -- because I see now what God has done with me in Christ -- therefore I reckon myself to be dead. That is the right kind of reckoning. It is not reckoning toward death but from death.."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1924




 2008/4/19 17:06
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

How wonderful to see the Power of Christ in our brethren, the full confirmation of the Life God intended us to have from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-7 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In Christ, by His Grace through His Faith:

Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/4/19 17:37Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

"Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a SIGN between me and them, that they might know that I AM the Lord that sanctify them." Ezek 20:12.

"Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned Mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and the profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from My Sabbaths, and I AM PROFANED AMONG THEM...therefore, have I poured out My indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God." Ezek 22:26,31.

Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:19.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." Ja 2:10,11.

"And the Dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev 12:17.

"Here is the patience of THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS." Rev 14:12

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

He is, only, Lord, to those who obey Him.

 2008/4/19 21:10Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sabbath

sscr01,

Brother, a challenge for you. Read through this link (it's actually a small book) in regards to this whole subject matter. Found it very explanatory. Read it if you can unbiased. I did so as I have not really given a great deal of thought to the whole subject in some time. To be honest think I had some of my own misconceptions and subtly wondered if I was not in some way in disobedience to the commandment.

It is geared towards Adventists but that doesn't in any way negate the issue and that is ultimately larger than the Sabbath issue anyway. The larger issue is in regards to how we understand the "law", the "covenants" and the gospel, where we stand now. I encourage you brother to take it all in and consider.

Some excerpts;

[i]The stone laws were glorious, 'so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly [47] behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance' (vs. 7). This was when he came down with the tables of the law in his hands. And it is also the 'ministration of death,' because death followed its violation.


No Sabbatarian, therefore, keeps "the law," "the law of God," or "the law of the Lord"; for if he did he would offer sacrifices, be circumcised, and live exactly like the Jews. So all their talk about "keeping the law" amounts to nothing, for none of them do it. In their at tempt to keep a part of that law they thereby bring them selves under obligations to "keep the whole law," as Paul argues in Gal. 5:3. But as none of them keep the whole law, they bring themselves under the curse of the law, by constantly violating one part while attempting to keep another. This is the very point that Paul made against Judaizing legalists of his day (see Gal. 3:10). The person who keeps one precept of the law just because the law says so, thereby acknowledges that the law is binding on him. Then if he neglects some other part of the law, e thereby becomes a transgressor of the very law he professes to keep. This is exactly what Sabbatarians do. They keep the Sabbath because the law says so and thereby become "debtors to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:3). Then they neglect many things in the same law, and so are under the condemnation of the law (Gal. 3:10). But we "are dead to the law," "not under the law," "but under grace"—the New Testament.



In Heb. 10:28 it is said that "he that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses." Persons were put to death for violating the Decalog (see Deut. 17:6). They were put to death for breaking the Sabbath (Exod. 31:14), blasphemy, theft, and the like. Hence the Decalog is included in "the law of Moses."


There are no promises of future rewards, nor threatenings of future punishments, in all the Mosaic law. Every careful student of that law must be aware of this feature of it. The reason is clear. It was a national, temporal law, given for a national, temporal purpose. As a sample of all, see Deut. 28:1 19. If they keep the law, they shall be blessed in children, in goods, in cattle, in health, etc. If they disobey, they shall be cursed in all these. Stoning to death was the penalty for theft, murder, Sabbath breaking, etc. Hence it was the "ministration of death written and engraver in stones" (2 Cor. 3:7), and "is done away" (vs. 11).

Adam "sinned" long before that law was given (see Rom. 5:12 14). Cain sinned (Gen. 4:7). The Sodomites were "sinners (Gen. 13:13), and vexed Lot with their unlawful deeds" (2 Pet. 2:8). Surely none of these violated [65] "the law," which was not given till Moses. To say that they must have violated the principles of that law is not to the point. When the Jews killed Stephen (Acts 7:59), they violated the principles of the law of Michigan which forbids murder; but did they violate the "law of Michigan" ? No; for it was not given for eighteen hundred years after, and they were not under it anyway. So neither Adam, nor the Sodomites could have transgressed the law of Sinai, for it was not yet given. Abraham kept God's laws (Gen. 26:5), but surely not "the law which was four hundred and thirty years after" (Gal. 3:17). All this clearly shows that God had a law before the code of Sinai was given.[/i]


(Had written this out earlier; Logical issues with the 'day', (spanning the globe and times of the setting sun), the consistent pointing back to Sinai and to that which was given in Egypt and to Israel, right on through to all that is spoken of the 'law' and the 'tablets' and all the notations regarding 'covenants' and especially of those done away with in Christ Jesus. All these things and more are brought forth as a compelling argument and challenge if the whole of it could but be read through unbiased and honestly. Even just one aspect stands out predominantly, the notice of great difficulty and contradiction;

To be consistent, the sabbath breakers are to be stoned to [i]death[/i]. If the keeping of the sabbath is still present and enforceable so is it's penalty. Why is the former kept and the latter left undone? Is there not an obligation and a duty?) (This is noted later on that the Adventist would say that the penalty is done away with at the cross, but that also proves to be problematic)


[i]Adventists make a great ado over the absurdity of the idea that God should abolish his law at the cross and then immediately reenact nine tenths of it. They say, "As well cut off your ten fingers to get rid of one bad one, and then stick nine on again." So they go on with a whole jumble of absurdities involved in the position that God's moral law was abolished at the cross and a new one given. But this is only a man of straw of their own making, hence easily demolished. We hold no such absurd position. But the Mosaic law from Sinai was only a national one founded upon the principles of God's moral law. Even while it existed it did not supersede God's higher law; and when it ended, it in no way affected God's law, which continued right on, unchanged and unchangeable. To illustrate: The State law of Michigan forbids murder, theft, and adultery. In these items it is founded upon God's moral law. Now abolish the law of Michigan. Does that abolish God's law? No. So with the state law of Israel. Neither its enactment on Sinai nor its abolition at the cross in any way changed God's great moral law by which he will judge the world. The Adventist absurdity grows out of their own false theory, that is all. The particular wording of the law as adapted to the Jewish age was "the letter" or "form" of the law for the time being. If a Jew loved God with all his heart, he obediently circumcised his sons, offered burnt sacrifices, paid tithes, kept the Passover, the new moons, the Sabbath, and attended the temple worship, for this was "the law of the Lord" (2 Chron. 31:3; Luke 2:22 27). But if a Christian loves God he will be baptized (Acts 2:38) take the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11:24) wash the saints' feet (John 13:1 16; 1 Tim. 5:10); attend meetings (Heb. 10:25); and observe the law of Christ, which is much different from the law the Jews observed. Hence "there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Heb. 7:12). Those who make the mere letter of the Jewish law an iron rule, and contend for the exact wording under all circumstances and in all ages, miss the spirit of the gospel, and are in bondage [68] to a system out of date (Gal. 3:19 25; 4:21 25; 6:1 3, 13, 14; 2 Cor. 3:3 15).[/i]


[url=http://www.churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/sabbframeset.html]The Sabbath and the Lord's Day[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/19 22:34Profile





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