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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Elohiym: Creator

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 The Lord's Day

[b]Rev 1:10 -
I was in the Spirit[/b] - This cannot refer to his own spirit, for such an expression would be unintelligible. The language then must refer to some unusual state, or to some influence that had been brought to bear upon him from without, that was appropriate to such a day. The word “Spirit” may refer either to the Holy Spirit, or to some state of mind such as the Holy Spirit produces - a spirit of elevated devotion, a state of high and uncommon religious enjoyment. It is clear that John does not mean here to say that he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit in such a sense as that he was inspired, for the command to make a record, as well as the visions, came subsequently to the time referred to. The fair meaning of the passage is, that he was at that time favored, in a large measure, with the influences of the Holy Spirit - the spirit of true devotion; that he had a high state of religious enjoyment, and was in a condition not inappropriate to the remarkable communications which were made to him on that day.

The state of mind in which he was at the time here referred to, is not such as the prophets are often represented to have been in when under the prophetic inspiration (compare Eze_1:1; Eze_8:3; Eze_40:2; Jer_24:1), and which was often accompanied with an entire prostration of bodily strength (compare Num_24:4); 1Sa_19:24; Eze_1:28; Dan_10:8-10; Rev_1:17), but such as any Christian may experience when in a high state of religious enjoyment. He was not yet under the prophetic ecstasy (compare Act_10:10; Act_11:5; Act_22:17), but was, though in a lonely and barren island, and far away from the privileges of the sanctuary, permitted to enjoy, in a high degree, the consolations of religion - an illustration of the great truth that God can meet his people anywhere; that, when in solitude and in circumstances of outward affliction, when persecuted and cast out, when deprived of the public means of grace and the society of religious friends, He can meet them with the abundant consolations of His grace, and pour joy and peace into their souls. This state was not inappropriate to the revelations which were about to be made to John, but this itself was not that state. It was a state which seems to have resulted from the fact, that on that desert island he devoted the day to the worship of God, and, by honoring the day dedicated to the memory of the risen Saviour, found, what all will find, that it was attended with rich spiritual influences on his soul.

[b]On the Lord’s day[/b] - The word rendered here as “Lord’s” (κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this place and in 1Co_11:20, where it is applied to the Lord’s supper. It properly means “pertaining to the Lord”; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day “pertaining to the Lord,” in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:

(1) That this refers to some day which was distinguished from all other days of the week, and which would be sufficiently designated by the use of this term.

(2) that it was a day which was for some reason regarded as especially a day of the Lord, or especially devoted to him.

(3) it would further appear that this was a day particularly devoted to the Lord Jesus; for:

(a) that is the natural meaning of the word “Lord” as used in the New Testament (compare the notes on Act_1:24); and

(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word “Sabbath” would have been used.

The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (about 101 a.d.), who calls the Lord’s day “the queen and prince of all days.” Chrysostom (on Ps. 119) says, “It was called the Lord’s day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day.” Later fathers make a marked distinction between the “Sabbath” and the “Lord’s day”; meaning by the former the Jewish “Sabbath,” or the seventh day of the week, and by the latter the first day of the week, kept holy by Christians. So Theodoret (Fab. Haeret. ii. 1), speaking of the Ebionites, says, “They keep the Sabbath according to the Jewish law, and sanctify the Lord’s day in like manner as we do” (Prof. Stuart). The strong probability is, that the name was given to this day in honor of the Lord Jesus, and because he rose on that day from the dead. No one can doubt that it was an appellation given to the first day of the week; and the passage, therefore, proves:

(1) that that day was thus early distinguished in some special manner, so that the mere mention of it would be sufficient to identify it in the minds of those to whom the apostle wrote;

(2) that it was in some sense regarded as devoted to the Lord Jesus, or was designed in some way to commemorate what he had done; and,

(3) that if this book were written by the apostle John, the observance of that day has the apostolic sanction. He had manifestly, in accordance with a prevailing custom, set apart this day in honor of the Lord Jesus. Though alone, he was engaged on that day in acts of devotion. Though far away from the sanctuary, he enjoyed what all Christians hope to enjoy on such a day of rest, and what not a few do in fact enjoy in its observance. We may remark, in view of this statement:

(a) that when away from the sanctuary, and deprived of its privileges, we should nevertheless not fail to observe the Christian Sabbath. If on a bed of sickness, if in a land of strangers, if on the deep, if in a foreign clime, if on a lonely island, as John was, where we have none of the advantages of public worship, we should yet honor the Sabbath. We should worship God alone, if we have none to unite with us; we should show to those around us, if we are with strangers, by our dress and our conversation, by a serious and devent manner, by abstinence from labor, and by a resting from travel, that we devoutly regard this day as set apart for God.

(b) We may expect, in such circumstances, and with such a devout observance of the day, that God will meet with us and bless us. It was on a lonely island, far away from the sanctuary and from the society of Christian friends, that the Saviour met “the beloved disciple,” and we may trust it will be so with us. For on such a desert island, in a lonely forest, on the deep, or amid strangers in a foreign land, he can as easily meet us as in the sanctuary where we have been accustomed to worship, and when surrounded by all the privileges of a Christian land. No man, at home or abroad, among friends or strangers, enjoying the privileges of the sanctuary, or deprived of those privileges, ever kept the Christian Sabbath in a devout manner without profit to his own soul; and, when deprived of the privileges of public worship, the visitations of the Saviour to the soul may be more than a compensation for all our privations. Who would not be willing to be banished to a lonely island like Patmos, if he might enjoy such a glorious vision of the Redeemer as John was favored with there?

[b]And heard behind me a great voice[/b] - A loud voice. This was of course sudden, and took him by surprise.

[b]As of a trumpet[/b] - Loud as a trumpet. This is evidently the only point in the comparison. It does not mean that the tones of the voice resembled a trumpet, but only that it was clear, loud, and distinct like a trumpet. A trumpet is a well-known wind instrument, distinguished for the clearness of its sounds, and was used for calling assemblies together, for marshalling hosts for battle, etc. The Hebrew word employed commonly to denote a trumpet שׁופר showpar means “bright” and “clear,” and is supposed to have been given to the instrument on account of its clear and shrill sound, as we now give the name “clarion” to a certain wind-instrument. The Hebrew trumpet is often referred to as employed, on account of its clearness, to summon people together, Exo_19:13; Num_10:10; Jdg_7:18, etc.; 1Sa_13:3; 2Sa_15:10.


Barnes Notes


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/5/1 9:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Get out of the old testament law and get into the Grace of Christ and into His Body the Church and out of the set aside wife of God, Israel, and into the Bride of Christ, His Body the Church which were first call Christian in Antioch, New Testament Body of Christ the Church, not the old testament children of Israel, which we are not.
Jesus Christ the Son of God is not Michael either.

IS THE CHURCH (spiritual) ISRAEL?

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is, we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. In the Scripture we find the Church is not Israel the nation, but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah in the Old Testament, while the Church is called the bride of Christ in the New Testament. This shows distinctions in how God relates to each, and how each group is related to God. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It was Jacob whose name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became the nation of Israel. It is the physical posterity of Jacob that is Israel, this is what makes one Jewish.

Many transfer the promises and the covenants of Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look up this phrase; you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported when they are read in their full context.

There was no Church in the Old Testament because there was no incarnation, no revelation of the Son, nor his sacrifice that broke down the middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Eph.2:14). For the Church is made up of both believing Jews and Gentiles, not so for Israel.

Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob, who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob. God had specially promised to Israel salvation and the believing Jews received it through the gospel. But Paul explains that not all the natural descendants of Jacob were embraced in this “Israel;” for that “they are not all Israel, which are of Israel” (Rom. 9:6). As Paul already declared in an earlier chapter: “He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28, 29). The seed which is Israel is from Jacob and the apostle and other writers make a clear distinction between this and Abraham’s seed.

“But they have not all obeyed the gospel” ( Rom. 10:16). They have not all responded to God’s call to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. This is foretold by Isaiah, who is quoted by Paul in Rom. 9:27; that only a remnant of the natural descendants of Jacob would obtain the salvation of God. “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the remnant hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Rom. 11:7).

Gal. 3:7 “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Being a son of Abraham does not make one a Jew, being a son of Jacob does, so a gentile can be a son of Abraham. But Jew’s are a son of Abraham and of Jacob.

As Paul stated in Rom. 4:11-16, the children of Abraham, are those who have the faith of Abraham, whether by their natural birth they were Jews or Gentiles. This is detailed in Galatians 3 and 4; Gal. 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” both Jews and Gentiles are spiritual brethren in the body of Christ.” The apostle says, to Gentile believers: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29). So those who accept the Gospel both Jews and Gentiles are of Abraham's seed, but only those who are physically Israel are from Jacobs seed.

The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church “As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon “the Israel of God.” This can be made clear by the preceding verses v.12-13 where Paul is tackling the topic of circumcision and the Jews influence to have the gentiles circumcised. He then tells us the mandatory rite of the Abrahamic covenant is not applicable to the believer but it is the cross that is necessary to make a new creation. In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizer's were teaching that the law was needed also. Those (Jews) who obey this are the Israel of God (the remnant). Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, “ for they are not all Israel who are of Israel” (Rom.9:6). There is also “Israel” after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph. 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God making a new entity. The church is neither Jew or Gentile but consists of both. The two put together make one “new man,” a third entity that is not Israel nor gentile. The word Israel is used 73 times in the New Testament, not once is it used for the Church.

Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.” Notice that the whole chapter is addressing the Jews. Within Paul’s theme of the book of Romans he addresses mankind that can be outlined in 3 portions. The whole world is under condemnation of sin1:18-3:30; then he addresses the Gentiles 1:18-2:16; He addresses the Jews 2:17-3:20.

According to Paul’s specific aim in this portion of the letter, not all the descendants from Jacob are Israel; as he states on 9:6 “They are not all Israel who are Israel.” Not all who are named Jews are truly Jews, the true Israel of God (the Jews) are those who believe in the Messiah. Rom.2:17- 20 starts with the greater responsibility the Jews have. He points to the law that was not given to the Gentiles but the nation of Israel, and they have the responsibility of knowing God.

It never says anything about a gentile being a spiritual Jew but is explaining that one is really Jewish not by the keeping of the law, but having a born again experience. Paul is directing the teaching of the promised new covenant specifically to the Jews who believe, although the Gentiles are included. Paul is not teaching Gentiles become spiritual Jews but not all Jews are true Jews. There are Jews who believe and the Jews who are in unbelief. Just as it is put in other areas of a remnant among Israel, the true believers and a non-remnant, believing Israel as the Israel of God.

A believing Gentile becomes a spiritual son of Abraham which is an inheritor of the spiritual blessings God promised to the Jews, they are grafted into the covenant he made with Israel.

As for Israel, the Jews, Jer.30:18, 31:8 “Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth.”

Isa.43:5 “I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...”

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both.

letusreason.org

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/2 5:27Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother Phillip,

Thank you for replying to my last post.

Even though I mentioned the fact that John made it very clear that the sanctuary he saw was in heaven, and He saw the ark and after that there was a great display of power.

You said:""""Christ is no longer on earth physically, but He is in you Spiritually, Making Him our lives."""

Forgive me for saying this but I don't believe that vision given to us by John has anything to do with Physically or Spiritually tabernacle, for both of these two was and is down here on earth. Physical = Tabernacle made by hands, and Spiritual = Us. the first one doesn't exist anymore but the latter are still here, which is us.

This is what John saw,

Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.


Questions:

What does it talk about?
Temple of God.
Where is the Temple?
Heaven.
what was seen there?
The Ark.
Where is the Ark?
In the Temple of God in Heaven.


Now, if you cannot see that John is not talking about the earthly tabernacle, then I must say that your understanding of scriptures needs a check up.

Taking into account that the Temple we are talking about here is the Heavenly Temple.

How would you answer these questions?

why was the ark displayed to John?

Just to show that whatever is inside has passed away?

It doesn't make sense.


I don't neet to ask what is inside the ark for we all know that?

===============

Then you made a comment about the Sabbath.

Quote:"""The Sabbath is no longer on earth, but in Heaven, as the Ark of the Covenant is also. You yourself ask what was in the Ark? If the Ark contains the commandments and they are Gods and Christ is the only fulfiller of the whole Law, and if He is in us, where is the Sabbath and the Commandments?""""


Dear brother, please let me rewrite this for you and then you ask yourself if what you wrote here makes any sense.


The Ten Commandments tells us what we should or should not do.

For instance, Remember the SAbbath to keep it Holy, do not do any work in it.

very simple. but you say that Christ fulfilled it for you, therefore you can any work in that day and that does not count as sin to you.

ok, Now let's apply it to the rest of the Ten Commandments, let's see how the others stand the test.


It says,

Do not kill,

Do not Kill is no longer on earth, but in Heaven, as the Ark of the Covenant is also. You yourself ask what was in the Ark? If the Ark contains the commandments and they are Gods and Christ is the only fulfiller of the whole Law, and if He is in us, where is the commandment of do not Kill?


Now, Applying the same thing as we did for the Sabbath, we have this.

Breaking the Sabbath law by working in it.
Breaking the Do not kill law by killing someone.
Now that Jesus fulfilled the law for me.

I can work on the sabbath and not sin.
Can I also kill and not sin?
Can I lie and not sin?
can I worship other gods and not sin?
and the list goes on.

If you want to show us some logic for doing away with one commandment, it has to stand the test for all the others. otherwise the theory does not hold water.

=====


Before I make a comment on this I want you to know that I keep His commandments because I love Him and He abides in me.

1 John 3:22-24 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
========

Quotes:

""" not by works in the Keeping of a Day """"

"""Don't worship a corruptible day"""

"""Don't Seek the Day of The Sabbath"""


Dear brother what you have descbribed here, was described in a very different manner by the prophets and God Himself.

This is how the Sabbath should be referred to.

Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it.

Sanctified = Holy.

Exodus 16:23 a holy Sabbath to the LORD.

Holy again.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Holy Again.

Exodus 35:2 but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD.

Holy again.


Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath,

Here Nehemiah declares it not only to be Holy but as God's Holy Day, Not israel Holy day.


Isaiah 58:13 From doing your pleasure on My holy day,

Holy Day again.


Just to end this I want to take you to what God showed Peter in regard of the Gentiles.

Remember when God told Peter not to call common something that He had cleansed.

Acts 10:15 "What God has cleansed you must not call common."


Now, if we should not call common something that was unclean but now is clean, what do you thing we should call something that God Called Holy since the foundation of the world?
Something that was sanctified, Hallowed by God Himself.

You can call it whatever you want but please do not teach us to do the same.


God bless you....

 2008/5/4 7:13Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Jayyou,

The Ark of the Covenant was a sign to Israel of God's loyalty and love through out their wilderness journey and battles. This sign of the Ark in Revelation 11:19 is the assurance of God's faithfulness and love and His Promises to Israel, as the chapters proceed on in chapters 12 and 13, also concerning Israel and the future Millennial Kingdom.

In Revelation 11:19, you appear to be taking a verse, and disconnecting it from previous verses and chapters hereafter. In verse 19, the Kingdom of God is seen retrospectively as having fully come...that is, referring to verse 15. The Kingdoms of this world have now become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ. These Kingdoms 'now' are in the hands of Satan ruled by anti-Christ.

These Kingdoms were offered Jesus in His 40 days of testing, Satan offering Him the Kingdoms then, if He would bypass the cross. Not only did Jesus fulfill the everlasting Covenant from the foundation of the world, at Calvary , winning victory over Satan in redeeming mankind, He will also win, in this final battle, the Kingdoms of this World, and overthrow Satan once and for all.

These Chapters fulfill the final, ‘putting all things Under Him’. These things must take place prior to His Reign on earth. There is to be a war in the Heavens like never before. This war, waged against the faithful remnant of Israel, again, please see in Chapters 12 and 13.


R.G. Benjamin

 2008/5/4 13:23Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi there dear brother RevBenjamin,

We were discussing something sometime ago and you just disappeared, I am glad that you are back.

Please allow me to comment on the message that you posted.

Quote:"""""The Ark of the Covenant was a sign to Israel of God's loyalty and love through out their wilderness journey and battles. This sign of the Ark in Revelation 11:19 is the assurance of God's faithfulness and love and His Promises to Israel, as the chapters proceed on in chapters 12 and 13, also concerning Israel and the future Millennial Kingdom. """"


Oh yes, the old argument that there is in fact a division between the people of God.

But then we go back to the old argument of the old and New Covenant, which were given to Israel and the House of Judah, remember?

Yes of course, when it suits you then there is no division between us and israel, we are all heirs of the Promises of the covenants,but then somehow the division creeps up when it comes to certain things. Don't you find it interesting?

This is what Paul said:

Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Oh, yes. there is another place that Pauls tells how we, Gentiles, Circumcise our hearts and we become inwardly jews, Remember. Could it be that the ark of the covenant is also being displayed for us inwardly jews?

Romans 2:26-29 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

=====

But hang on, are you saying that there is a division?

IS THERE A DIVISION OR ISN'T THERE?
Make up your mind.

=====
=====
=====


Dear brother, the second part of your message, you quoted this.

""""In Revelation 11:19, you appear to be taking a verse, and disconnecting it from previous verses and chapters hereafter.""""


You are confusing me,

First God gave the Ten commandnents, then Christ fulfilled it, therefore they are done away, then Christ returns sets up His kingdoms, which you say is for literal Israel only, then He establishes the very same commandments that you said he has abolished on the cross?

What sort of theology is this, I do not believe what you said makes any sense at all.

You put a sequence of events that will validate the commandments again. These things must happen before the ark has becomes important again?

Only the Fact that the Ark of His covenant was shown to John and the power that was displayed after that, tells me that His Commandments and Laws are very much binding to all of us, and I will make my words the very same words that was pronounced by David.


Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;

Talking about Testimony of the Lord.

Exodus 25:16 "And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.


Psalm 1:1-2 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

Psalm 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart."

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

=========

Test drive the Sabbath, you life will never be the same.

in Love......

Jayme

 2008/5/4 18:34Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
Oh, yes. there is another place that Pauls tells how we, Gentiles, Circumcise our hearts and we become inwardly jews, Remember. Could it be that the ark of the covenant is also being displayed for us inwardly jews?



Jayyou,

Is there a distinction made here between Jew and Gentile? It would appear there are two groups here.

Are you one of the 144,000? OR are you in a group no man could number? If you believe you are part of the 144,000, please explain why. If not, please explain why.

Do you see any mention of keeping a sabbath leading to being washed in the Blood of the Lamb?

It would appear here all glory goes to the Lamb of God.

Revelation 7
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. [u]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, [/u]stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, [u]and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [/u]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/5/5 11:32Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

jayyou,


Was Christ created or birthed?

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Are the children of Israel created or birthed by God?

Even unto the head of Israel, he was told he must be born again. From a created being who cannot see the kingdom of God, unto a born again spiritual being, a son of God, even to be able to see the things of the Kingdom. Which includes the Ark in the heavenlies. Which Christ is in us for He is our Life, not the Law and commandments.
By His life in us spiritually, that is the only way we can see or enter the Kingdom of God.

John 3:3-6 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Are the children and son's of God created or birthed by God?

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Where are the children of God, "son's of God", at this time?

1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Now why was John able to see the Ark in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Christ in you the Hope of all Glory:

Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2008/5/6 4:35Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother RevBenjamin,

Thank you for your reply and please allow me to comment on what you said.

Quote: """"Is there a distinction made here between Jew and Gentile? It would appear there are two groups here."""""

Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Colossians 3:10-11 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.


I do not believe I need to add anything else to this text, it is pretty much self explanatory.

========

Quote:"""""Are you one of the 144,000? OR are you in a group no man could number? If you believe you are part of the 144,000, please explain why. If not, please explain why."""""


Dear brother I believe in the spiritual Israel, the inwardly Jew, Romans 2. I also have the circumcision of christ.

Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

======

Am I one of the 144.000? I would love to be one of them, but if not then I would also be extremely happy to be found in the other group.

Here is a site that explains what I believe to 144000 to be.

"http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/144,000greatmultitude.htm"


============

I have some questions for you.

Where are you going to live in heaven?

What is the name of the city you are going to live?

I was wondering what gate will you enter in?

Revelation 21:12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

++++++++++


Quote:"""""Do you see any mention of keeping a sabbath leading to being washed in the Blood of the Lamb?"""""


No, it does say it here, but in another place it says this.

Revelation 12:17 who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I do not believe that God the Father and God the Son have a set of different rules, but I have heard people saying that now only the commandments of Jesus that is important, I am not sure if you fall into this category, but John clearly said that the saints do keep the commandments of God. In case you do not know what are the commandments of God, Here they are.

Exodus 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

and in another place, God calls the Ten Commandments His very Testimony.


Exodus 25:21 and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you.

======

The interesting thing is that you all say that the commandments were done away, but none of you agree how they were done away.

Brother Phillip has a very different theory than yours.

You say there is two people, and yet the covenants were given only to them, but you include yourself somehow to be partake of the promises but when it comes to the duty to the words of the covenant then, well they are not for me only for Israel.

For instance...

Hebrews 8:8 He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --

Oh yes, then you will quote all the texts that I gave you saying that in Christ we are all heirs of the promises, that we are one in Christ.

Please don't pick and choose.


In love Jayme

 2008/5/7 4:27Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother Phillip,

Thank you for your message, please allow me to comment on it.

Quotes:""""

Was Christ created or birthed?

Are the children of Israel created or birthed by God?

Are the children and son's of God created or birthed by God?

Where are the children of God, "son's of God", at this time?"""""

=======

I am sorry but I just cannot follow your line of thought.

I will try again.

The temple that John saw in heaven cannot be us dear brother.

We are down here you are not in heaven, not yet.

Revelation talks about the temple of God.

Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,

We will be a pillar in the temple.

so the temple cannot be us.

Revelation 7:15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.


Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple.

Again the temple of God that is in Heaven, not down here on earth.

Revelation 15:5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Here is another verse that clearly says that temple of God is heaven, and it is the temple of the Testimony, what else is called the Testimony? The Very Ark that we are talking about, but then it says.

Revelation 15:6 - 16:1 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. NKJ Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."


Again, this temple cannot be us, dear brother for it clearly states that the seven angels come out of it to pour the judgments on the inhabitants of the earth.

Now you do know that the tabernacle that moses built was a copy of the heavenly one, and if the one down here on earth was a copy of the heavenly one and in the earthly tabernacle there was an ark of the Testimony of God, why is it difficult for you to understand that in heaven there is a temple with everything that the earthly tabernacle had. Including the ark with the Ten Commandments.

but you do not want to see it do you?

So, again I will say,

According to Revelation 15:5-8, out of the temple came the angels, so it cannot be you and me. Or are you saying that the angels are going to come out of us, to pour judgemtns on us. It doesn't make any sense at all?


Now, according to the temple in revelation 15. Can you answer why was john shown the ark?

all you have done so far brother is to change the temple of God to something that suits your theory, but revelation 15 is also talking about the temple of God and it is not the spiritual temple.


God bless you.....

 2008/5/7 4:50Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
Again, this temple cannot be us,



John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Jayyou, what was Jesus referring to? Himself or a building?

I believe scripture teaches it is Jesus Christ, for no other, not even a building was raised in 3 days, but Christ Himself.

How are we united to this temple, Jesus Christ?


Ephesians 2:

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [u]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:[/u]


Who is Paul talking about here? The Church, no longer Jew, no longer Gentile? Absolutely, for the CHURCH is His Body. And we His Body, are members of one another. How do we become members of the Body of Christ, this Temple?

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


Answer: I am Crucified with Christ

Romans 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Again Peter says:


1 Peter 2: 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner.

Those who have rejected the Gospel are the disobedient. Rejecting the Everlasting Covenant which contain the promises of eternal life.

Jayyou, do you know what other objects were placed in the Ark?

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; [u]To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a [b]white stone,[/b] and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.[/u]


Quote:
Revelation 7:15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple.




Revelation 7 comes before Revelation 11.

Can you see those in Revelation 7 serve Him night and day? Does it say just one day out of a week? Or would this be a continual perpetual worship? Are these in heaven or on earth?

It would appear to be Heaven!

Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Who are those who are allowed to come boldly to the Throne of Grace even now?

[u]Where[/u]
is the Throne of Grace? How do you get access to this Throne?

[u]Who[/u]
made it possible to come face to face before the Throne?

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/5/7 8:17Profile





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