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 Re: NO other gospel but Yeshua's

Christinyou said: quote: [i]Yes, when so many are telling you, what you are doing is wrong and what you are leading others into is not the Gospel of Paul in Christ Jesus, but the Gospel of Moses[/i]

Phillip, [b]I recognise one gospel-----the Good News as brought to us by Yeshua Messiah.[/b]

Also, my answer to the RevBenjamin was not scripture taken out of context. Thank you.

Stephen
-------------------------------

[u]Let me repost it for clarification[/u]:

"Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?"

In this they were referring to the ruling of Leviticus 20:10.

Note, that they are very careful not to actually quote the words of the Law, but
rather state it in general terms, ascribing that the law of Moses
commanded that she should be stoned.

When we read the very words of the ruling in Leviticus, we soon
understand why they were not willing to actually quote the very
wording of the ruling themselves:

Leviticus 20:10 - "The man who commits adultery with another man's
wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer
and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death."

Both should be put to death.

The big question is: Where was the man?

We do not know who he was, and we only have their words about her
adultery to imply that he even existed. They only bring the woman to
Yeshua, for Him to try her. Yet, any good judge would have first asked
for them to bring the other guilty parties, so that the case could be
heard. They must have realised that, and were not concerned with
justice for the woman. And, justice is a serious element of the Law.

So it is obvious, that they were not really interested in the Law,
but rather in catching Yeshua out. John says as much in V6:

"This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of
which to accuse Him."


Adultery is sin. If we are going to use Yeshua's teaching we have to use His definition, ...whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart (Mt. 5:28). Yeshua was not justifying adultery in this incident. Neither was he teaching against the Torah of his Father, which clearly teaches that the other guilty party was to be brought to justice too. No one was found, even although she was allegedly 'taken in the act' according to those who accused her. Their duplicity and cunning were exposed!



 2008/4/23 14:25
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
--The insistance by most that the Torah (commandments, teachings, instructions of YHVH) are quote: "impossible to keep".



Can a person keep the Torah?


Are you a farmer? No? Then you are not required to fulfill the commandments relevant to farmers. You are not likely to create hybrids of two plant-bearing fruits, nor are you likely to cross-breed animals, so the Torah's Commandments about these matters do not apply to you. You have not transgressed the Torah by not being a farmer.

Are you a Cohen (a member of the Priestly family of the Tribe of Levi)? No? Then a great many other Commandments do not apply to you. True, you can't fulfill them, but that's not a sin.

You can't fulfill those, because you are not allowed to!


Are you a judge? No? Then you can't fulfill another whole set of Commandments that pertain to judges in Jewish Courts. But that is not a sin, you simply cannot fulfill them.

To be sure, the Ten Commandments are ten of the 613 Commandments of the Torah. Also, they
represent ten categories of Commandments, which means that all the 613 can be represented by those ten, but there are far
more than ten Commandments in the Torah.

So there are actually 613 Commandments in the Torah, but as I have shown above, most of them don't apply to most people.


Can you tell me what part of the Torah cannot be kept today by man?

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/23 14:26Profile









 Re:

RevBenjamin asked, after quoting various parts of Torah: [i]"Can you tell me what part of the Torah cannot be kept today by man?"[/i]

Perhaps you can tell me.

[b]Let us not make YHVH's Torah appear ridiculous, by asking questions that are not sincere in intent.[/b]

Read the Torah. (the first 5 books of the Bible). He will show you what applies to you. Then ask why even in Rev. 14:12 there are those who "[u]keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua[/u]". (*note: not those who argue against God's commandments.)

Please tell me which of the Father's commandments we can break or ignore, and why.

Thank you.
Stephen.

 2008/4/23 14:36
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The woman caught in adultry, was she stoned? If Jesus was to command the Law, He should have cast the first stone.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

By the Love that Jesus showed the adulterous woman, what were His words?

Then on top of that because He did not judge the woman, the Pharisaic men that were there told Him that He was not true.

John 8:10-15 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Those that keep the old law bear record and witness of themselves, and Jesus said that that record is not true because they judge after the flesh.

What were His words to the woman? "Neither do I, go and sin no more." The woman would have stayed under the Law and would have been stoned if Christ has not forgiven her and told her He would not judge her either. Now which way is what we are trying to show you, the Judgement of the LaW OR THE freedom in Christ and His Cross. Even if she did sin again, she would always have in her mind that Jesus is the one that would not condemn her.

After the Cross we have Him as our advocate with the Father and if we sin the sins of a man in the flesh, we see that God is faithful and just to forgive us if we confess, not try harder to keep the Law. That Law is in us now and He is the One that will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, not us trying harder to keep the Law.

This is the Law of sin and death we have had taken away from us by the Christ that is in us, it is His Seed that remaineth in us and that Seed cannot sin, a man can. So we are perfect before God in Christ Jesus and if we sin we have Him as the Advocate with the Father for those sins of the flesh.

What does John say? 1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

But He also says, we cannot sin. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His Seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The two have nothing to do with keeping the Law of the commandments but because we have the Seed of Christ that remaineth in us and cannot sin any sin that will separate us from God ever again, and if we sin we of the flesh, we have the advocate with the Father who condemns no man, if we confess we are forgiven, that is why God is faithful and Just to forgive us our sin, not because we confess but because of Christ and His Cross, The Father has Justified us and cleanses us from all sin and unrighteousness.

Who is our righteousness, Justification?

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

What Seed is in us? How are we purified?

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Not by keeping the Law. But by the Incorruptable Seed that is by the Word of God that is in you and abides forever.

Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-7 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through Him might believe.

Do you now believe?

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/4/23 15:09Profile









 Re:

Christinyou asked me: [i]"The woman caught in adultry, was she stoned? If Jesus was to command the Law, He should have cast the first stone."[/i]

Phillip, [u]that was my point in posting that scripture.[/u] According to the Law, the adulterer [u]and[/u] the partner are to be brought to the judge. The Pharisees did not bring the other party, and were obviously trying to [b]catch Yeshua[/b], to trip him up in their mis-use of the Law. So no, according to the Law, no one could stone her, without the other guilty party being brought to them.

Here is the actual law found in Leviticus regarding adultery. Note that the Pharisees only quoted part of it, in order to use it unlawfully: Leviticus 20:10 - "The man who commits adultery with another man's wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death."

Yeshua has now paid the price, the curse of sin such as adultery. He took that death on himself. Should one therefore continue in adultery? No. To do so would be to trample underfoot the sacrifice of Messiah. Go and sin no more - is what He says.

Yeshua not only upheld the Torah, he came to magnify it, and that is why he taught that adultery was not only physical, but could even take place in a man's heart. He instructed his listeners on a fuller understanding of what the original command truly meant. Thus he catches the crafty in their craftiness.

Stephen


 2008/4/23 15:35
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

The main point is that the promise of Messiah has been realized and the Levitical priesthood, as outlined in the Torah was a shadow that is now replaced by the substance, Jesus Christ.

The Word gives us Scriptural evidence that the sacrifice Jesus Christ, fulfilled the Law becoming our High Priest, and WE are His Temple.

To live by the faith of Christ is to live by that perfect obedience becoming obedient unto death.

Paul further evidences this truth in Philippians Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.



Stephen, can you see and hear what it means to live 'by the Faith of' the Only Begotten?

Those who want to keep law, only want to avoid the cross.

The Torah never asked you to identify in His death and resurrection.


R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/23 15:36Profile









 Re:

quote: [i]"Stephen, can you see and hear what it means to live 'by the Faith of' the Only Begotten?
Those who want to keep law, only want to avoid the cross.
The Torah never asked you to identify in His death and resurrection".[/i]

That is why I like to quote this verse from [u]Revelation 14:12[/u]: [b]"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua".[/b]

Faith in the only begotten Son, and, as James said, demonstrating that faith by works. Or as Paul said it would be 'not be the hearers of the law that are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified".

Yes, Rev, the Levitical Priesthood has ceased as such, and we now have a High Priest who mediates on our behalf.

Thank you
Stephen

 2008/4/23 16:05
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Steven wrote:

"Yeshua has now paid the price, the curse of sin such as adultery. He took that death on himself. Should one therefore continue in adultery? No. To do so would be to trample underfoot the sacrifice of Messiah. Go and sin no more - is what He says.

Yeshua not only upheld the Torah, he came to magnify it, and that is why he taught that adultery was not only physical, but could even take place in a man's heart. He instructed his listeners on a fuller understanding of what the original command truly meant. Thus he catches the crafty in their craftiness."

Stephen

Yes, the Law was made even harder to keep, by Jesus Himself who is the Law within Himself. That is the kicker for us, if we could not keep the law as it was, how much harder would it be when the righteousness of God Himself show us what the fulfillment of the Law was suppose to accomplish, and did not and would not and could not, in mortal flesh, Him being the only One that could because He was God Himself incarnate in man.

He, God must be incarnate in man for that to be accomplished and that is what the birthing is all about. It is Christ Jesus Incarnate in us, that is the only way we can fulfill the Law not by the keeping of the Letter, but by the Spirit of the Law that is in us, Jesus Christ Himself. Without the Son of God being Born Again in us we cannot see these things of the KKinddom of God.

Being Born Again of water and Spirit, the Water of Life Himself and the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is the Law of Christ. Not the Law of commandments unaccomplishable by the flesh.

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

How can uncircumcision fulfil the Law. Only by the Christ that is Born Again in you. We have Him, let us put Him on.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Phl 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.

The Mind of Christ, which we have, to be renewed in our minds that we might accomplish the Law in us.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

What fulfils the Word of God?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; (((((which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:))))) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

What is our labor? Not the striving of the keeping of the commandments, but the striving according to His working in us Mightily.

This is what will make us perfect. The perfection of Christ Himself in us.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

The circumcision of the Heart is how we keep the righteousness of the Law, who God has made unto us, Him as our righteousness.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We are getting close, I now hear what you are saying.

In Christ: Phillip






_________________
Phillip

 2008/4/23 16:30Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
That is why I like to quote this verse from Revelation 14:12: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua".



My friend, verse 13 TRUMPS verse 12, explains verse 12, and is the fulfillment of our obedience to any and all commandments!


Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


This is the fulfillment of our Blessed rest in Christ.

Those who have the 'mark of the beast' have no rest, day or night. They are still of the old creation under the Old Covenant

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/23 16:58Profile









 Re:


RevBenjamin,

Your statement quote: [i]"verse 13 TRUMPS verse 12, explains verse 12, and is the fulfillment of our obedience to any and all commandments!"[/i].

This is not a card game, where one verse trumps another.

Besides that, verse 13 in NO WAY negates verse 12 which clearly says that the end-time saints are those who will be keeping the commandments of God and who have the faith of Yeshua.

There are other witnesses to this in the book of Revelation 12:17 says: "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who [b]keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Yeshua[/b]".
Revelation 22:14,15 says: "Blessed are those who [b]do his commandments[/b], that they may have the right to the tree of life, and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood".

RevBenjamin, we differ greatly in our understanding of these verses - I wish you well on your journey.

Thank you.
In the name of Him who comes as it is written in the volume of the book, even Yeshua the Messiah,
Stephen.

 2008/4/23 19:42





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