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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Elohiym: Creator

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RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:


Stephen,

Please tell us, which of these is written in your heart? It cannot be both. Is the Torah written in your heart or the New Covenant?

The Torah:

Leviticus 24:20

Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.

New Covenant

Matthew 5:37-39
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.



R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/22 12:29Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear revbenjamin,

just so you know, some on here have been on here for months now trying to put others under the seventh-day sabbath

this camp has been coming on here demanding that believers should be keeping the sabbath the way they desire it to be kept.

there is an agenda by this camp demonstrated by their persistance that we "obey the sabbath" the way they want us to. there is usually a lack of humility that would say "i understand why you see things in the word that you do, but we should pray and seek Him together that He would show Himself unto us whether we obey the friday-saturday sabbath or not" and instead there is much of a "if you are not obeying the sabbath the way i see it in the scriptures, then you are breaking God's law and are in danger of the flames" kinda attitude. (not all, but many).

i could fellowship and worship with a seventh-day adventist if the person could look past this sabbath issue, but many can not.

i ask this now "is our salvation dependant upon the 'obedience' of a seventh-day sabbath or not?" if it is, then we stand on 2 diffent grounds for salvation. if it is not dependant upon that, then let us look past this issue and focus on One more deserving of our worship and meditation, Jesus Christ our Lord and God.

phil

 2008/4/22 15:52Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sabbath

An old post, close to 4 years ago;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3878&forum=36]The fourth commandment[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/22 16:27Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
ask this now "is our salvation dependant upon the 'obedience' of a seventh-day sabbath or not?" if it is, then we stand on 2 diffent grounds for salvation. if it is not dependant upon that, then let us look past this issue and focus on One more deserving of our worship and meditation, Jesus Christ our Lord and God.



Phil, Our salvation is dependent upon the Blood of our Lord and [u][b]Savior[/b][/u] Jesus Christ.

I have read many posts on SI in conjunction with the issue of Sabbath Keeping. What amazes me more is the generosity given to these here, Paul would call 'Enemies of the Cross'.

Blessings to you,

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/4/22 16:37Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
What amazes me more is the generosity given to these here


Many a sabbatarian post has already been locked. For those who know the truth, perhaps it would be best to not engage or be obliged to participate in such fruitless debates? The ploy here is to draw things out for the occasion of flashing sabbath "proof texts" in the hopes to win some. I would beseech the older, more mature saints here to not fall for this tactic.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/4/22 16:55Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Phil, Our salvation is dependent upon the Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I have read many posts on SI in conjunction with the issue of Sabbath Keeping. What amazes me more is the generosity given to these here, Paul would call 'Enemies of the Cross'.

i agree brother. what i am saying is that there are probably some who observe a "saturday-sabbath" who understand that not all observe it like them and can move past the issue. but those here who are adament that we observe the sabbath their way desire to place believers under bondage and keep the law by the flesh.

i can care less what day someone may want to gather together to worship God in a corporate setting, the issue at hand is "are they born again and do they desire to walk with Him?"

that is what that paragraph that i wrote earlier was trying to say.. i apologize for the misunderstanding..

blessings brother,
phil



 2008/4/22 16:56Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother RevBenjamin,

You asked a couple of question to sscr01, and If you allow me I would like to try to answer them for you.


First of all, I want you to know that I am SDA, and if for one second I believed that we, (SDAs) deny the Deity of Christ, you better believe me that I would leave it once and for all.


People read on the internet all sorts of things and if whatever they read supports what they believe then it must be true.

I believe that we can talk about different points of doctrines and discuss it and even if you do not belive the things that I believe and vice verse, we can still have a pleasant discussion and in the end agree that we disagree.

I just think that it is not very nice when people starts naming denominations and passing judgments that are not necessarily true.

If someone quotes something in the bible and tells me that he believes it says something different of that that I believe, I want to investigate, pray and learn if what he says is right or wrong. I just don't assume it is wrong.

When this happens people want to know what denomination this person belongs to so that they can try to discredit what they say by saying things of his denomination, and I believe this is not very nice...

You want to talk about scriptures, let's talk about Scriptures, anything else is uncalled for....

============

Please allow me to answer some of the question that you put to our dear brother.


Quote: """"Do the Angels keep the sabbath?""""

though I don't understand the relevance of the question, I will say this...

whatever commandments God gave them, they must abide otherwise they would sin.

Is the Sabbath binding to the Angels, I don't know for the bible doesn't say that but it also doesn't say it isn't. it doesn't say that they cannot commit murder, Do they?
it doesn't say that they can lie? do they?

I have just mentioned a couple of the Ten Commandments you can do the test in all of them, But sure you will say that only the fourth one are not binding to the Angels...

One thing I do know, God SAnctified the SAbbath, God Himself rested on the SAbbath, and he gave Us a command to rest and to hallow His Holy DAy.
You can call it a day but Nehemiah calls it,
Your Holy Day..... Amazing....
++++++++

Quote:""""If so, how? Is it according to our time clock of a 24 hour day? What time zone do they keep? """"

I sorry to say this but this is just plain silly, These question have no relevance at all. I just cannot see the point of these questions, but I will say this, whatever commandments God gave them I can garantee you that they abide by them, whatever the conditions are, I don't know, but they do abide by them, otherwise they would be down here with the others that disobeyed...
+++++++

Quote:"""""Is this Sabbath the same as the 4th Commandment of the 10 Commandments, or another?"""

Dear Brother, there are two types of Sabbaths,

One, instituted at creation, no sin in the word, no need of a saviour to redeem us from sin.

Two, Instituted to Israel, called feasts of the Lord, these were shadows of things to come. They Pointed to the saviour that would come to redeem us all....

++++++++++++

Quote:""""Are Angels also subject to the 10 Commandments?""""

Again, you seem to have a fascination with Angels, Whatever God has commanded the Angels is irrelevant to me or us, as far as our salvation is concerned.

I ask you this, take all the other nines, are they subject to them or they can do whatever they want to do in regard of the other nines?

Please I am not saying that the Angels are subject to the Sabbath, for the bible doesn't say that, but if God SAnctified it, hallowed it and blessed it, it would not surprise me if they did. In Exodus, the bible tells us that God rested and felt refreshed, why wouldn't He extended that to the Angels. You will say, now you are saying that the Angels should rest. I am not, I just said that the bible tells us that God rested from His works and felt refreshed on the Sabbath that all

====

I just don't see the relevance of these question, since God commanded men to do certain things then we should worry about us fulfilling them, the Angels are a whole different ball game...


=========


I have a few question for you, I would love to know what you think about this....


++++++++

=====If the law are done away, why was the ark that contains the law of God shown to John?

====what is still inside the ark?

====tell me about the fourth commandment of the law that was put inside the ark down here on earth, taking into account that whatever was done in the earthly tabernacle was a copy of the heavenly one?

====Whatever is inside the ark that was seen by John, Are there ten Commandments there or nine?




=====One last thing, Please explain to me Romans chapter two, where Paul is describing circumcision of the flesh and the inwardly Jew?



Would love to hear your comments about this....

God bless us all.....

 2008/4/22 19:21Profile









 Re:

Yes "LoveHim", there are two camps.

Messiah Yeshua put it this way:

Matthew 7:21-27 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you [u][b]workers of lawlessness.'[/b][/u]

1John 3:4 says: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for [u][b]sin is the transgression of the law.[/u][/b]"

Revelation 22:14 puts it this way: "Blessed are they that [b][u]do his commandments[/u][/b], that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Stephen

 2008/4/22 20:01









 Re:


Greetings Reverend Benjamin,

[u]You asked:[/u] [i]"Stephen, Please tell us, which of these is written in your heart? It cannot be both. Is the Torah written in your heart or the New Covenant?"[/i]

[u]My answer:[/u] [b]The New Covenant is the Torah, formerly written on stone, now written of the hearts and minds of those who have the Holy Spirit of God, because of their faith in Yeshua Messiah.[/b] That is outlined clearly in many places, including Hebrews 8:

[b]"This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the YHVH:
I will put my laws (TORAH) into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people."[/b]


The RevBenjamin also quoted the following, asking me to choose one:

[i]"The Torah:
Leviticus 24:20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
New Covenant Matthew 5:37-39
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."[/i]

[u]My answer:[/u] Messiah Yeshua came to [b]"magnify the law".[/b] Isaiah spoke of the Servant thus: "YHVH is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will [b]magnify the law,[/b] and make it honourable." (Is 42:21) (note: [i]Not do away with it[/i].)

In that passage from Matthew 5, Messiah was teaching and magnifying the Torah. He was correcting the false teachings and interpretations of the Torah.

Messiah Yeshua was very wise in his dealings with people. Especially the hypocrites - those who professed to follow the Almighty, but were always looking for 'wiggle room' in the commandments, always seeking to re-interpret the Torah of YHVH to suit their own carnal lusts and desires. Yeshua answered the crafty according to their craftiness:

Matthew 5:27, 28 "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart". .....No getting round that one!

Matthew 5: 38,39 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." .........Rev, you imply that Yeshua Messiah was negating the teachings of His Father--this is not the case. People had taken this instruction, and twisted it to be used as personal vengeance on others, whereas the original teaching pertained to judicial matters in the camp of Israel. i.e. [u]Compensation, NOT Retaliation[/u].

Thank you.
Stephen
-------------------------

[i]more of the Master's words:[/i]
Then spake Yeshua to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [u]All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.[/u] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
[u]But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah[/u] and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Messiah.
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! [u]for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.[/u]


 2008/4/22 20:06









 Re:

quote: [i]Many a sabbatarian post has already been locked. For those who know the truth, perhaps it would be best to not engage or be obliged to participate in such fruitless debates? The ploy here is to draw things out for the occasion of flashing sabbath "proof texts" in the hopes to win some. I would beseech the older, more mature saints here to not fall for this tactic. Brother Paul[/i]
----------------------------

It is [b]no ploy[/b] of mine to quote: [i]"win some"[/i]. Many are called and few are chosen.

Sadly, the heart of the matter is that unless the New Covenant (Jer. 31, Heb 8 etc) [b]has been written on the heart, it is impossible for one to know the delight of obeying the Father's commands.[/b]

Yes, the sabbatarian threads do end up locked - the [u]truth[/u] however, is no longer locked, as the power of the institution is fading, and [b]men are seeking the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.[/b] Not [u]many, but the few.[/u]

Although one can drag up another ex-whatever to 'testify' how he/she was in bondage while so-called keeping the sabbath or some other commandment, it matters not, for many are being called to obey the Father's commands in our day, and [u]testify to the joy and freedom found in the Father's ways[/u].

We will all stand before the judgement seat. [u]While you are confident that teaching and discouraging others from keeping the LORD's sabbath and other commandments is something you are proud of,[/u]..........[b] I believe that encouraging others to obey the commandments of God is scriptural.[/b]

While you exhort others quote: [i]"more mature saints here to not fall for this tactic"[/i], .......... I will exhort those (few, for the way is narrow), who are so touched by the Spirit: [u][b]"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Yeshua"[/b][/u].

"How Esau loves his food".

Thank you.
Stephen.

 2008/4/22 20:07





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